norfolkmastering

I think I got to the bottom of the problems I had with the micro lite. It doesn't like another MOTU USB MIDI driver being loaded as well as its own (I had the ultralite USB drivers loaded) That got it up and running reliably. The next issue was that the MOTU micro lite appears to be outputting all normal MIDI messages (including CCs) in MIDI Running Status mode. This means that the Status Byte is only transmitted once until there is a change of Status Byte value. I was amazed to find this on a USB MIDI interface. So my custom external controllers were not programmed to deal with this and were getting well and truly confused! I have worked out how to change the controller software to deal with MIDI running status so I guess I will do the work as I like the micro lite and it does work with both Sonar and MIDI-OX simultaneously.

I've messaged them to double check whether their MIDI interfaces will do the job for me. I'm also going to have a look at the new Windows MIDI Services drivers to see if that's a route I should explore. Does anyone have knowledge or usage of these new drivers?

I just spent some hours testing the MOTU micro lite 5x5 MIDI interface. Although I was able to select ports simultaneously on Sonar and MIDI-OX, operation during dual-client use was not reliable. Sometime it failed to pass SysEx, sometime it scrambled CCs, just not right. So I have reverted back to the MIDIs on my multiple MOTU ultralites. These work reliably under dual-client use. My search for a 5x5 (or bigger) MIDI interface with true multi-client operation under Windows continues ... Suggestions welcome!

That's great news Mark, thanks. I will do some testing of my own but it's really helpful to know that PDC is taken account of in the MTC generation. I want to use FX on the 'in the box' mix as it's much easier to build the song's sound palette in Sonar before I do much work on the analogue mix. If Sonar (with FX) didn't stay in sync with the tape machines then I would have to bypass the Sonar FX when adding additional tracks or doing overdubs (which I do in both Sonar and in analogue to the machines at the same time). Thanks again.

In my hybrid studio set up I slave locked three tape machines using LTC audio timecode, which is derived from the MTC available from Sonar. This is working well and the lockup is tight and reliable. The LTC is recorded on to one track of each machine from the MTC output when Sonar is playing. When I start adding VST effects to my 'in the box' mix, I guess each Sonar track may have a different amount of PDC applied so that all Sonar track audios stay in time sync. My question is whether PDC impacts on the MTC output? So let's assume I had recorded LTC audio timecode on to the three tape machines from Sonar MTC and at that time I had no PDC applied in Sonar. Now I start to mix in the box and as I add VST effects, then PDC is applied on some Sonar tracks to keep all Sonar tracks in sync. Does the MTC output from Sonar (to which my tape machines are slave locking) still have the same time relationship to Sonar tracks as it did before PDC was applied? If yes, is there a solution to bring the tape machines back into sync?

Thomann have agreed to take the MIDIface back so that's a relief. I've just ordered a MOTU Micro Lite USB (from Reverb) which seems to use the same MIDI drivers as the ultralite mk3. I wanted something compact as I'm tight for space. It is 5x5 which is enough for my needs. I'll let you know how that goes.

I tried changing Sonar to UWP. The MIDIface ports are not all recognised and have different names. I tried to enable a couple of them but I get the error message, 'The device handle is invalid'. So I switched back to MME I also noted that with MID-OX open and MIDIface ports selected in MIDI-OX, Sonar takes a very long time (about 1minute) to boot up (that's of course with no MIDIface ports selected in Sonar). So I think I need to send the MIDIface back and look for something with non-generic drivers. The MIDI ports in my Ultralite mk3s don't suffer from any of these issues. As I said before, I wanted to find another multiport MIDI interface solution before changing over to the MOTU 16As for my audio interfaces (16As sadly have no MIDI ports).

I’ll give it a try. Looks like UWP might not work with MIDI-OX but I’ll try it on Sonar and see what happens. Thanks for the suggestion.

Yes I’m using a USB3 port. What brought this drama on is that I’m in the throes of replacing six MOTU ultralites with three MOTU 16As which don’t have MIDI interfaces. The ultralite MIDIs work just fine but in the move to the 16As I need to find a MIDI interface with at least 5 inputs and 4 outputs which allows both Sonar and MIDI-OX to access the same MIDI input ports.

I have further more serious problems with the MIDIface 8x8 It uses generic Windows drivers and it will not allow me to access its MIDI input ports from both Sonar and MIDI-OX at the same time. I tried using loopMIDI ports to get around the problem. So I route the the MIDIface input to a virtual loopMIDI port and then access that port in Sonar. It works but the MIDIface unit is struggling to pass MTC and is causing all sorts of response problems between Sonar and my two external controllers. My best guess is that the generic Windows drivers are not great and I may need to return the unit and find one that uses custom drivers. Thoughts on this whole issue would be welcomed.

I've just bought a MIDIface 8x8 and to test it I cabled each input to its corresponding output. Then I used MIDI-OX to send CC messages (from a fader) to all eight outputs, then monitored the inputs in MIDI-OX. I seem to be getting the CC messages okay in all inputs but I'm also getting random other messages which don't have a MIDI channel. They come up in yellow in the MIDI-OX input monitoring screen. Are these expected?

I'm using Sonar to generate timecode to a MIDI output port. At the moment that's to a loopMIDI virtual port. I use that as the source for an MTC to LTC convertor which is a utility available in the ShowCockpit app. It comes out of my PC soundcard! The LTC is fed to all three of my machines, two Tascam 238S 8-tracks and one Fostex R8 8-track. All three machines use track 8 for recorded LTC timecode. The R8 uses a Fostex 4030 sync unit to do the actual slave synchronisation, but it also has a very comprehensive MIDI based remote control suite which includes the ability to locate to a specific full timecode (via SysEx). This MIDI control suite is incredible so I can use Sonar to set and unset the REC ARMs and a whole other bunch of stuff on the R8. The two 238Ss each have a Tascam ATS-500 sync unit. Again this these take care of slaving the 238Ss to Sonar. However the 238S remote control system is much more limited and based on RS232. So I have to use a PIC to translate MIDI remote control commands from Sonar (via AZ Controller) into the appropriate RS232 'text' character commands. These do include REC ARMs which is great. The ATS-500s have only CHASE mode (so it chases quarter frame timecode) and no facility to locate to a specific full timecode position. So instead, I send the Sonar song position timecode (again via AZ controller) to the PIC and then the PIC generates quarter frame timecode messages for enough time (about 2secs) towards that target song position. A couple of seconds is enough to get the ATS-500s to start chasing and it stops the machine when it gets to the target timecode. There should be an article coming out in the next RTM (Recording The Masters) newsletter which gives an overview of how this all hangs together, plus how I use Sonar to control my analogue mixer. All good fun!

I’m going to go with Sonar being the master for now. The MOTU should be able to slave to the Sonar MTC via the USB connection pretty well and then the MOTU will provide LTC to the three tape machines. We’ll see how that goes.

Yes the project has up to 21 tracks of audio, based on three 8-track machines with one sync track per machine. I am recording to Sonar and the tape machines simultaneously then I have the option to mixdown from Cakewalk or from the tape machines. The big advantage I see of using Cakewalk as the master is that it allows me to jump between markers in the song and the tape machines will chase. I think if I use the MOTU MIDI Express XT as the timing master then I lose that capability; so it might come down to functionality rather than anything else. I'm assuming that the Cakewalk MTC generation will be free of jitter? but I'm not sure what other timing issues there might be when using USB to transmit MTC from Cakewalk to the MOTU?

I am syncing three tape machines to Cakewalk. My options are either to use the MOTU as the timing master or use Cakewalk as the timing master.

I want to use a MOTU MIDI Express XT to act both as a MIDI router and as an MTC to LTC converter. It does those things! My question is whether to slave Sonar from the MOTU device or do it the other way around?

I agree with most of the comments on this topic. Larger text, better contrast between text and background and I’d like to see the relative sizes of the rotary knobs increased a bit.

What you need is a stereo offset control to shift the stereo image to the left or right of centre and also a stereo width control. They used to be standard on early BBC consoles with stereo channels.

How are you finding working with a curved monitor? I find working with two 24” straight monitors that I’m struggling to see the GUI stuff at the left and right hand edges, so the idea of two curved monitors providing a constant viewing distance looks like a good solution.

I’m looking to upgrade my current Sonar two monitor setup. Currently I have a pair of BenQ GL2450s which has a max resolution of 1920x1080 and an aspect ratio of 16:9 It’s about 21” wide and 24” diagonal. I use one monitor for the waveform display and one for the console view. I guess my main need is to display more tracks in the Console view. I’m not sure if a 4k display will allow more tracks in the same physical width? Or whether I need to get a physically wider monitor? If anyone has experience of a similar upgrade and can suggest what’s best, that would be great. As a supplemental, I have space to the side of my monitoring position for a third monitor. I wondered about dedicating this third monitor for fx plugin display. Has anyone tried this? Is there anyway to tell Sonar to pop up plugins onto a dedicated monitor?

I think I found the culprit which was causing the timing issue. I had a reverb plug-in on a track feeding one of the auxes. The feed track was hidden and I didn't spot it. All good now. I'm getting perfect timing on all insert send feeds to my analogue mixer and machines.

That’s great. I’m on the road for a week so I’ll post again when I get back and organise a test project.

I use the External Insert sends because they sit within FX presets each of which contains one other FX which is used for a couple of other important purposes, one of which is to give each track a unique identity. As example I can assign an FX preset named ‘R8-3’ to a track. This preset contains an ID tag which tells my external controller to route that Cakewalk track to a specific analogue port within my analogue recording and mixdown system. I previously used Cakewalk track and aux output routing (as you describe) but it did not allow the level of integration which FX based routing via External Insert Sends allows. When I do the final mixdown ‘out of the box’ Cakewalk controls all the routing, gain, pans and faders in my analogue mixer and also remote control of my analogue tape machines should I be using them in a project. So it’s possible that some of the other FXs I use are causing the issue. When I’m back from travelling I’ll share a project if you would be willing to spend the time checking timing.

I’ll experiment with a click on each track and measure the different timings that way. Should be easy enough to figure out which tracks need delays to match timings. Hopefully it will be consistent.

The Cakewalk external insert sends are not returned back into Cakewalk so the auto delay compensation mechanism is not used. The sends go to my external analogue mixer when I decide to do the final mix down in analogue. That’s why I wondered if the extra path length via auxes was causing the timing problem.