norfolkmastering

I think I found the culprit which was causing the timing issue. I had a reverb plug-in on a track feeding one of the auxes. The feed track was hidden and I didn't spot it. All good now. I'm getting perfect timing on all insert send feeds to my analogue mixer and machines.

That’s great. I’m on the road for a week so I’ll post again when I get back and organise a test project.

I use the External Insert sends because they sit within FX presets each of which contains one other FX which is used for a couple of other important purposes, one of which is to give each track a unique identity. As example I can assign an FX preset named ‘R8-3’ to a track. This preset contains an ID tag which tells my external controller to route that Cakewalk track to a specific analogue port within my analogue recording and mixdown system. I previously used Cakewalk track and aux output routing (as you describe) but it did not allow the level of integration which FX based routing via External Insert Sends allows. When I do the final mixdown ‘out of the box’ Cakewalk controls all the routing, gain, pans and faders in my analogue mixer and also remote control of my analogue tape machines should I be using them in a project. So it’s possible that some of the other FXs I use are causing the issue. When I’m back from travelling I’ll share a project if you would be willing to spend the time checking timing.

I’ll experiment with a click on each track and measure the different timings that way. Should be easy enough to figure out which tracks need delays to match timings. Hopefully it will be consistent.

The Cakewalk external insert sends are not returned back into Cakewalk so the auto delay compensation mechanism is not used. The sends go to my external analogue mixer when I decide to do the final mix down in analogue. That’s why I wondered if the extra path length via auxes was causing the timing problem.

No problem when I’m mixing totally within Cakewalk. However I also mix in analogue using feeds from Cakewalk which are fed to my analogue mixer via the new external insert send only feature. This is when I think I found a timing issue. So consider this example: Some ‘external’ feeds are derived directly from Cakewalk tracks. These always time align in the analogue domain. Then I add some ‘external’ feeds to my analogue mixer which are derived from Cakewalk aux masters. Why aux masters? I use auxes to collect together my 12 Session Drummer sources into five ‘microphones’. So each of the 12 drum sources is sent to each of the five ‘microphones’ (i.e. an aux bus) at different feed levels. So I am simulating mic’ing a real drum kit with five microphones. It works really well. It is the external insert sends of these aux masters which don’t seem to be quite timing tight with the track feeds. And that’s why I wondered if the two paths had different timing path lengths within Cakewalk. I’ll do some more tests in case there is another cause.

If I have a track and I send that track to a bus and also to an aux; then I also route the aux master to the same bus, does Cakewalk have to do some timing work so that the two paths; track to bus and track to aux to bus are time aligned?

I got the Channel Tools figured out except for the tool to change the width of each stereo leg. i understand how width on a stereo signal works but what does changing the width of one leg of a stereo pair do?

F1 key didn’t work but I found the online help using a mouse right click. That brought up the online help. Channel Tools allows the left and right legs of a stereo source to be freely moved anywhere in the stereo field which is great. It also has the facility to alter the width of each of the left and right legs of the stereo source but I don’t understand how this works?

Channel Tools looks like it has the tools to do what I want. Do you know how I can get full documentation for this plugin? I tried hitting F1 and nothing appeared. In fact I'm struggling to get any of the plugin help to appear using the F1 key!

I recently wanted to move a stereo piano track (recorded from a Yamaha CP33) a bit to the right of centre to sit better in a fairly busy mix. It's not something I would often do but it was what the mix needed. I noticed that as I panned the piano right, that I started to lose a bit of the low end. What I think is happening is that as I pan right, the right leg of the audio stays the same level but the left leg is reduced in level (so the sound of the piano is altered) . In my thinking the standard pan function provided by Cakewalk is fine for mono sources and fine for balancing the relative levels of left and right legs (should they have been recorded at different levels) but that it doesn't act as a true stereo pan. Thinking back a very long way to the 1970s, I remember that mixing consoles in the BBC (in London) used to have mixing consoles (analogue of course!) with dedicated stereo channels. Each stereo channel included: - An input stereo balance control, used to correct any unintentional misbalance between left and right audio legs (much the same as the input pan on Cakewalk buses) - A stereo offset control used to move the stereo image left or right within the stereo field - A stereo width control From memory, the function of the stereo offset control was as follows: As you e.g. move the stereo image to left of centre: - the original left audio feed stays at the same level - the right audio leg is reduced in level - an amount of the right audio source feed is fed to the left audio So in an extreme case, if you moved the stereo image fully left or right then you would end up with a mono version of the original stereo source In practical use, it means you can move a stereo source a bit left or right of centre without changing the essential tonal sound of the stereo source. I think that the stereo width control was also used to widen a slightly moved (from centre) image (which would otherwise lose width as its moved). Another practical example would be an acoustic guitar recorded in stereo (maybe one mic pointing at the sound hole and a second mike pointed down the fretboard). Treated as a stereo source, you would ideally want: - an input balance control to set up the best sounding combination of the two mics - a stereo offset control to be able to move the guitar left or right of centre without unduly changing that tonal balance - a stereo width control to be able to set the desire 'width' of the guitar within the stereo image So I guess I would pose a question. Does the standard Cakewalk Pan Pot work as it should on stereo track sources and on stereo buses? If not, would a stereo offset control be an improvement?

My external controllers are set up as control surfaces. You are correct! The latest Sonar fixes the issue. Thanks for taking care of this.

I have traditionally ticked the 'Project/MIDI/Other Options/Zero Controllers When Play Stops' otherwise I have problems with some MIDI instruments continuing to output low level audio when I stop play. The main culprits are 'AM Rotary Organ 64' and 'Session Drummer', both of which I use a lot. Unfortunately the MIDI messages output by this option are causing my custom external hardware controller to reset, so I have had to untick the Zero Controllers When Play Stops box. I have tried ticking the VST Plug-in Properties boxes on these two instrument for: 'Always suspend on stop' 'Always suspend on play' These reduce the occurrences of this low level audio after play is stopped but it's still happening from time to time. Can anyone help with this issue?

That's a great idea, thanks.

I use the FX Chain panel with a couple of the FX controls brought out on to the FX Chain panel for quick access. Is there any way to lock the set position of a knob (on the FX Chain panel) to avoid accidental nudging?

Thanks so much for the suggestions, I'll give them a try.

Does anyone know of a simple MIDI soft instrument I can load in Cakewalk and which could produce pure test tones for level checking purposes. Thanks.

Yes I have the return MIDI Cable connected. I get sound okay but I can't change any of the following on the Yamaha when I'm replaying MIDI from Cakewalk into the Yahama: - VOICE - BRILLANCE - REVERB - EFFECT TOUCH

I used the MIDI output of my Yamaha CP33 electric piano to record a piano MIDI track into Cakewalk ( I recorded in the key of C alongside a guide track) Then I replayed the MIDI part back into the Yamaha piano to hear the part again. Why MIDI? Partly to be able to correct any performance errors and partly to be able to change the playback key from C to Bb (which is the key I want to sing the vocal in). It works okay apart from one issue. When I playback from Cakewalk to the Yamaha piano I am locked out from making any tonal changes on the piano. Eg, I wanted to try a different piano voice but it is locked out from any changes. If I disconnect from Cakewalk then the Piano functions normally again. Is there some MIDI setting in Cakewalk which takes control of voicing back to an external MIDI instrument such as the CP33?

Yes I use ASIO. The MOTUs are all Ultralite with Firewire which allows multiple devices to be connected. I use two Firewire interface cards in my PC to spread the load. They are stable and work reliably. I was going to upgrade to the newer MOTU AVB networkable interfaces but MOTU had some sort of catastrophic chip supply problem and the model I wanted has become unable.

I'm using both CbB and Sonar at the moment and I can confirm that certainly, forward compatibility, is perfect. I use CbB for my song composition work with a single stand-a-lone MOTU interface and work entirely in the digital domain. It's quick and easy when composing. I move over to Sonar when I have the song arrangement sorted out and enough guide tracks already laid down in CbB. Then the project gets moved across to Sonar. My Sonar set up is quite complex with eight MOTU interfaces and simultaneous recording to Sonar and my 24T tape machine. Mixdown can be done entirely in the digital domain using Sonar, or hybrid using the much improved Sonar external inserts to bring in analogue effects, or fully analogue using Sonar to control the tape machine and an external analogue mixer. Which of these I chose depends on the song and the type of sound I'm trying to achieve. For me the stability of CbB and Sonar, together with the best DAW GUI I have ever used, makes composing, recording and mixdown a real joy!

One of the strategies that Bandlab might consider is to totally revamp the very limited marketing which Sonar has on the website at the moment. I did a comparison with its major competitors and it just doesn’t do justice to this fantastic product. Hopefully this is going to be addressed soon.

I know this is a well worn topic but … It looks like the original ‘get advance access to Sonar in Beta form’ has been replaced by ‘get access to Sonar’ via the monthly or annual payment options. So I guess I have three questions: Is Sonar now officially released or is it still officially in Beta testing? If I start a monthly subscription then at some point stop, are all my Sonar projects trapped? Is there any hope of getting a statement from Bandlab about future pricing intentions or do folks think the current ‘rental’ option is likely to be it for the foreseeable future (I’m not a fan of renting software)

I have heard these comments quite a bit over the years but I have never really understood why Cakewalk/Sonar has this stigma of being semi-pro? Are there actually features which Sonar lacks compared to the other major DAWs? (With the exception of being PC only which is bound to limit its appeal to Mac enthusiasts)

Just to say a big thank you to Noel and the rest of the Sonar development team for doing such a great job on the external insert enhancements. Not only are true mono port send and returns now possible but you can also configure send only and return only inserts. Absolutely great for those of us with hybrid digital/analogue setups. Also … being able to wrap one or more external inserts, each with custom names, within an FX Chain preset, means you can call up a preconfigured external insert already pre wired (in the analogue domain) to your favourite mix down chains. E.g. I have an external insert FX chain for main vocals, another for drums, one for piano and so on. Being able to call these up by ‘friendly’ name and have those names appear on the track and bus means I no longer forget which external FX are allocated to which tracks and buses. And of course you can preset send and return levels so the external insert is matched to the external FX chain. Fantastic!