PavlovsCat

@Starship KrupaWe've turned this into a thread all about jazz drummers -- and I love it!

I completely agree with you. Buddy is not one of my favorite jazz drummers. I prefer Gene Krupa, Max Roach, Elvin Jones and Joe Morello. But my mother was a musician and took me to see Buddy Rich for my birthday, and he was technically amazing to watch. But yes, I thought his playing was all about technique and not much about feel and playing from the heart. Joe Morello was the opposite (don't get me wrong, he had great technique, he just wasn't a show off; Buddy was an egotistical drummer; Joe's playing reflected humility and put the song first) stylistically, and I greatly prefer his playing.

Rich was far more technically skilled, but I agree, I enjoyed Krupa's drumming much more than Buddy's. Krupa was more creative, his playing had more soul. I also got to meet and hang with another jazz drumming great a couple of years after meeting Buddy, Louie Bellson, who was a great big band drummer and one of the kindest men I've ever met.

He was, undeniably, an incredibly gifted drummer. He was in his 60s when I met him, but he was still an amazing drummer at that age.

And I have my own first hand Buddy story! I got to hang out with him on his bus and had an opportunity to sit in with his band (I wisely declined). He was brutal to his bassist all night, but he couldn't have been nicer to me. But I was a 16 year old drummer in awe of him. He loved it. If you look through my Facebook photos. I shared one of the pictures I took of Buddy that night.

This may the least important thing posted today (spoiler: it is), but Wikipedia., that virtually infallible source of facts, states: "The song was written by George Jackson, who originally had the Jackson 5 in mind when he wrote it. According to Donny Osmond, Michael Jackson later told him that the Jackson 5 almost recorded this song first, but chose to record 'ABC' instead." I'll listen to the video in a bit (I'm hanging with the family and on my phone while they're listening to music).

It sounds good, but it's also 84.4GB for the UDS version. It takes a lot of hard drive space to use sample libraries for synth sounds as opposed to soft synths. While I think SoundPaint is actually a lot of fun to program sounds/patches, the file sizes are huge and that is an additional cost consideration to keep in mind. Over the years I've bought a lot of synth sample libraries for KONTAKT and the space really adds up fast, and the reality is, I only use a very small percentage of the patches of each library. I largely agree with folks who've posted that they primarily use soft synths over sample libraries of synth sounds due to file size considerations. But the demos of this library do appeal to me.

@Starship KrupaYou know I'm a total Starship Krupa fan. You're one of my favs here, but we're going to have to agree to disagree when it comes to Donny and Marie. I can't justify that stuff. Just pure cringe, IMO. And you bought up an Osmond tune that I find hilarious on multiple levels, "One Bad Apple," where the band tries to be the Jackson 5 (and I do recall that the song was actually originally written for and pitched to the Jackson 5). As far as covers, I would appreciate seeing Donny and Marie covering the unedited version of the Dan's "Show Biz Kids," but that would purely be for cringe value.

True story. The most popular band I played in had a very nice PA system and lighting owned by the lead singe who owned the rights to the band name. He also owned a mid size truck our live sound engineer and lighting man would drive ti each show. We were with a really good agent who today books a lot of bands and artists that are well known, natonal acts, but kind of oldies bands and artists. For example, Willie Nelson, Cheap Trick, Go Go's, Foreigner,, Styx, REO Speeedwagon as well as jazz artists like Herbie Hancock. Back in the 90s, when our band wasn't playing, the lead singer would rent out the PA, sometimes to nationally known acts (our band was a rock band that made it to college radio and the media critics predicted would break nationally, but never did). One of those national acts was Marie Osmond. Our band's lead singer, Ron. went with the PA to the sound check and show and said Marie Osmond screamed at the band during the sound check -- was incredibly foul mouthed -- and demeaned them really viciously. He said he later spoke with the drummer, who told him that the band did not have good feelings about her. But when the show came on, Ron said Marie put on a completely different tone and behavior, playing a very pure and sweet person that seemed a million miles away from the person she was during sound check. Ron said it seemed terrifying to see the difference between the two personalities.

TL; DR VERSION Cory Pelazzari, IMO, is the most honest YouTube influencer doing sample library reviews that I know of. He's also pretty thorough. After he had a very negative experience with a well known sample developer that didn't like Cory's heavily critical reviews of their sample libraries -- and, according to Cory, threatened to sue him if he didn't take down critical video reviews of their libraries (they offered him suggestions to create more positive review videos of their libraries) -- to the point that he refers to as bullying --he's back and he's put up a couple of reviews in the last several days. The first review is for Acoustic Samples Vwinds Double Reeds library. The library is currently on intro pricing for $149 USD, and will go up to $219 USD after the intro period. You can skip below for the links or read on if you want to understand my experience with this influencer and why I think he's worth listening to and the realities of the pressures he's faced from sample developers for giving highly critical reviews. But if you're not into my mega posting, feel free to skip to the video and link below. THE LONG VERSION AND SOME "INSIDE BASEBALL" STUFF ON INFLUENCERS AND DEVELOPERS WHY CORY PELAZZARI IS PROBABLY THE MOST HONEST YOUTUBE "REVIEWER" OF SAMPLE LIBRARIES YOU'LL FIND AND SOME OF THE DETAILS BEHIND THE INFAMOUS VI-CONTROL THREAD THAT LEVERAGES HIS STORY TO LAUNCH AN ATTACK ON A SAMPLE DEVELOPER (BY CONTRACTORS OF THEIR COMPETITOR WHO DIDN"T DISCLOSE THAT RELATIONSHIP UNTIL THE DEVELOPER THEY WERE ATTACKING BROUGHT IT UP) Most people don't know how influencers doing "reviews" actually work and if they did, I'm sure that they would see the whole operation as shilling. To be very candid, most influencers can fairly be considered brand pitch people (or salespeople) -- often posing as unbiased reviewers when they are compensated by the developer being reviewed -- cashing in on the reach that they have to an audience that a brand wants to get their message to. While a brand can reach that audience with advertising, advertising doesn't come with the trust of an influencer with his or her audience and that is what influencers sell to brands, the value of the trust that they have with their audience and using that trust to pitch a brand's products to that audience. In modern marketing planning, virtually every product rollout plan for a consumer and many business products and services consider influencers an important part of of a new rollouts and on-going promotion. Even though a lot small developers commonly rely on influencers to reach their target markets. Even the less successful influencers -- those with a reach say, under 20,000 people -- will commonly ride a gravy train of free NFR product and sales commissions (AKA affiliate marketing), while the most successful influencers are often paid upfront for the products they "review" and the brands they review are commonly granted permission to see the videos the influencers make before they are released so that the brands -- in this market's case, the developers -- can discuss making edits, basically to remove opinions they don't like, such as comments they find unfavorable towards their "reviewed product." Just a little tip. You can easily spot influencers who are certainly not going to give you honest reviews. They don't say anything too critical about the products they review. Another easy way to spot a shill is that they do promo videos for the developers they review. Consider this basic giveaway clue on bias. If an influencer says something too critical about a developer's product, the gravy train will dry up and the NFRs and cash will no longer come their way. All of that amounts to an enormous pressure for an influencer to avoid saying anything too critical in a "review." So as a marketing pro, there are some things I look for that tell me that the influencer I am watching may be sincere and not merely shilling and heavily editing for a developer. One of those clues is whether the influencer says something so critical you can be certain that no developer would want to hear it. I can count on one hand the influencers in this space that do that. One of them, really the only one I know in this space that will be incredibly critical is Cory Pelzzari. I became a fan of his after watching a video for a drum sample library I was considering. Cory's review was thorough and super helpful -- and brutally honest. It was surprising how honest. I thought, this guy has guts, because there is no way the developer of the reviewed library Cory just explained is unredeemably poor will ever give him an NFR to review again. And the developer clearly didn't pre- approve that video. Cory's rock video saved me from buying that sample library. I immediately sent a link of the video to a sample developer friend of mine that I've consulted to in the past to tell him this was the most honest influencer I've ever witnessed in this space and I challenged my developer friend to send him his libraries for review. As I knew this developer makes the best libraries in his area of specialty plus he has the integrity and humility to respect an honest review and criticism. His reply? He's already in communication with Cory and feels the same way about him that I do. So those of you who spend time at VI Control may have seen a recent very controversial thread where the OP brought up Cory and his critical review of a sample developer and that developer's subsequent battle with Cory to take his video reviews down. FTR, that thread wasn't exactly as it appeared. But I'll focus on Cory's story. According to Cory, one of the partners of a well-known sample developer heavily objected to Cory's very critical review videos of their libraries and threatened to sue him of he didn't take them down. She also tried to persuade him to make new review videos that were more favorable to the developer, which she would pre approve before going live. Cory felt intimidated and dialogued with her, but didn't want to compromise his integrity. But the legal threats did worry him. Upon learning this story, I wanted to intervene to protect the independence/free speech that made this influencer so valuable. A decade prior the developer had called me for marketing and branding advice, so I thought I'd contact him to see if I could get help better the relationship between his company and Cory. We had a series of friendly chats, but I didn't feel my involvement made any difference and I suspect that his partner was the bigger part of the problem. I did recommend that threatening a slander lawsuit for a critical review is baseless and ridiculous and they really should not be engaged in putting that kind of pressure on this influencer, and with those tactics now being public, it would especially be a good idea to stop those actions. I advised Cory to ignore the threats of legal action, as slander is when someone tells damaging lies, not when you give a harsh critique of a company's products. So, why tell this story? Because I want the community to know how much pressure there is on an honest influencer doing honest reviews so that they realize how difficult it is to be honest in that line of work. I also want folks to understand the dishonesty of the system so that they don't get manipulated. Successful influencers can make a lot of money and developers will compensate them in various ways and I wish there was complete transparency on that for everyone to see, because influencers like to present that they're providing unbiased reviews and they're absolutely not doing that. But then you have an individual like Cory who is doing something completely different and I want to see him succeed and have an impact on the way influencer marketing works so that it's more honest than it presently is. It's been several months since I first started communicating with Cory, and his negative experience with that developer really shook him. But he's back and I think he's worthy of our support. I love to see the good guys win, and I very much believe that Cory is one of the true good guys, a person of integrity. I would love to see him grow his success as a YouTuber and hope that my fellow forum members will give his channel a look. LINK TO THE VWINDS LIBRARY: https://www.acousticsamples.net/vwindsdoublereeds

That would be part of their $10,000 "More of Everything Bundle" soon to be on sale for 99% off. I kid, I kid. And I need to clarify that because my joke isn't far from this developer's actual practices.

Is abomination too strong of a word for this? I'd say no... And, FTR, I love Steely Dan's music. This deserves a special place in the Covers Hall of Shame.

"Originally $1,900, the everything bundle is now available for just $59 (you save a whopping $1,841). You don’t want to miss this one, hurry and save!" - Audio Plugin Deal's web copy promoting Rigid Audio's Everything Bundle Rigid Audio is a KONTAKT sample developer that makes decent synth patch and electronic percussion libraries. I own several of them that I've picked up from $2.50 - $7 USD on flash sales. If you subscribe to their email, you'll regularly receive flash sales claiming discounts like 92% off for their libraries. The inflated list prices are merely a (less than honest and ethical) promotional tactic used to later claim outrageous deep discounting on their nearly always on sales (at their site or resellers). They've recently lowered some of these list prices to make them less ridiculously inflated, moving some down from previous list prices like $170 or more to $39, while others are still listed at as much as $140 USD at their website. So I did a little comparison to show how sloppy they've been and using their ridiculously inflated list prices. Here's a comparison of Rigid Audio's Everything Bundle list prices at three different websites: Rigid Audio Website: $1,960 USD list price Loot Audio: $1,650 USD list price Audio Plugin Deals: $1,900 USD list price, but regularly available for $59 plus their rewards cash, but right now they don't require any rewards cash and will give you an additional 10% off if you use the code at their website* Yep, it's at the point where it's hard to tell which fake, inflated list price you can believe these days (SPOILER ALERT: none of them). Anyhow, the $59 USD with an additional 10% discount is a pretty good deal if you like these libraries. It's absolutely not really 97% off a legitimate list price, as APD claims. I would ballpark the value of this total package at around $150 USD (multiplying 31 libraries x $5 USD as a kind of rough avg. flash sale price), so it is a bargain; just not a $1,841 level bargain --or anywhere close -- as APD claims. TL; DR VERSION Audio Plugin Deals has Rigid Audio's Everything Bundle on sale for $59 which usually requires APD's reward dollars, but they're current offering it without them and you can use the code at the site for an additional 10% off. The 10% off deal ends today. It's definitely not worth anything even remotely close to the $1,900 list price claims. But the current sale price is a good deal and an additional 10% off and no reward money required make it an even better deal. https://audioplugin.deals/product/rigid-audio-everything-bundle/ *I'm not sharing the discount code here (and it's listed on every page of their website, so finding it is easy), because there have been multiple deal threads I've created that have been deleted because I've shared discount codes and someone falsely reported to the moderators that I was using affiliate marketing codes. In fact, I've never used affiliate marketing codes or links in any posts at any point in time. I've never been part of any developer's affiliate marketing program and I don't even post referral codes some developers have for their customers since one of the mods stated a policy against doing so. That said, cclarry includes an affiliate marketing link for APD in his sig file -- and no, for the person who serially reports me, don't waste time reporting cclarry, as he is not violating any policy -- that I would recommend people use. Why? cclarry is truly the person who has made the deals forum what it is. He works tirelessly posting great deals here and gets no compensation for it. If you use his affiliate link you will pay the same price you would have if you didn't use it, and cclarry will make a small commission on your sale. If anyone here has earned that, it is certainly cclarry.

These two tools do look interesting. I own several of Ben's string libraries and greatly enjoy each of them -- I really wish he'd do a straight solo cello library. But these two tools are quite a departure from his string libraries I own-- and creatively, I think that's great even though they don't immediately appeal to me. For anyone who hasn't purchased any of Ben's libraries , I can enthusiastically recommend them (note: they all require the full version of KONTAKT) except for .Pathfinder Violin and Pathfinder Cello, which are NKS instruments and play in the free Kontakt Player. EDIT: I didn't realize that two of Ben's libraries play in the free KONTAKT Player until Reid pointed it out below. Fixed.

I hit drums. ? But I did Google it and understand the basic concept.

I've historically done a lot of impulse buying too (and I'm pretty sure a lot of other forum members can say the same), but more recently, I'm starting to look for deals where forum members really love a plugin and if the plugin and the audio demos appeal to me, I'll download a product demo instead of buying right away. If a developer is completely new to me or really costly, I'll sometimes PM a couple of musician friends and ask their opinions too.

I only have Heavyocity's freebies, but man, I haven't tried a freebie from them yet that I wasn't impressed by. Really nice stuff.

I don't remember when I picked my copy up, but sometime last year. I think you've made some fair points, mibby. I think one solution is that a developer offers a grace period, where those who bought a license during a certain period prior to the release of the new version, say 6 months to a year prior, they update them to the new version at no additional charge or at a very reduced fee. However, I really do appreciate that Softube is supporting the plugin for 3 years. Hopefully, they'll offer us an even better deal on the new version at some point. I really do like their plugins a lot.

This thread is a good example of how I end up checking out devs that are new to me. Seeing a bunch of you guys -- who I'm sure know a lot more about mixing than me (that sounds like a compliment, until you discover how little I know about mixing!) -- share how much you like this stuff results in my checking it out (usually, grabbing a demo/free trial version). So thanks, guys.

It's only because of other people sharing that they've bought the same stuff twice or grabbed the same freeibies twice without realizing they already had them that I came to realize that I'm not the only one that has done that. Plugin Boutique's and Plugin Alliance's shopping cart reminders that "you already own this product" have saved me from buying a bunch of plugins twice.

Hahaha. Come on, that was lighthearted. Hopefully, we can maintain civility -- and even a sense of humor when discussing this and other topics, whether we agree on something or not. I appreciate civil debate and want to see people candidly share their various perspectives, not just those who share the same views. It's a discussion board and that's what we're here to do. Someone posted that they'd like to see a lawyer weigh in on this topic, and since you stated you are a lawyer -- and I realize you already did weigh in earlier, but they clearly didn't see that post -- I think it would be especially of interest, as you understand this from a legal perspective, as many don't know much about that area as it pertains to this situation and I think that's no small factor in how people see Bandlab's responsibilities in this matter. I get the disappointment that you and others feel over the $199 deal from 2016 not working out as one would hope -- and I don't deny your right to have those feelings -- but I think that anger and disappointment is being unfairly misdirected at Bandlab (I don't fault those disappointed in Cakewalk Inc management or Gibson, although I don't think we know enough to know if the managers who made the decision to make that offer suspected that Cakewalk Inc would soon be shut down; although it was common knowledge that Cakewalk and Gibson were not doing well by 2016, as Gibson's financial problems were in the news a lot at that point), Would you agree or disagree that: (1) The resentment and sense of an unfulfilled moral obligation for the $199 lifetime updates deal is more appropriately directed at the former Cakewalk Inc management or Gibson, and not any of the companies that bought the assets of the dissolved Cakewalk Inc., including Bandlab, which merely purchased the intellectual property rights for the software and trademarks, the website domain and some other assets, but didn't actually buy the business. (2) If Bandlab merely used some of the code for Sonar and not the trademarks/branding (Cakewalk, Sonar, etc) or Cakewalk website domain, and instead used it to create a new DAW with a different name with a GUI that looked very different that you likely would not have the same expectations for Bandlab to fulfill the $199 Sonar lifetime updates deal as you do now. That is, if Bandlab had merely bought the rights to code and not the brand trademarks and graphics, and instead, say, used that to enhance their existing Bandlab software product, that you and others would likely not feel Bandlab owes you a lifetime of free product as you do now when they're actually using the former Cakewalk website, basically have rebranded the former Sonar software as Cakewalk by Bandlab and are going to release a new DAW and call it Sonar. I think that those are the main factors why there's this left over resentment and confusion for a sale that occurred in 2016 with a company that went out of business in 2017 -- and it's purely connected to the use of those brand names, that software and this website - -these things evoke the bitter memories for you and some others that are more appropriately directed at Cakewalk Inc, the company owned by Gibson -- and perhaps Gibson too, rather than at Bandlab, the completely separate company that merely purchased some of the assets of the former Cakewalk Inc from Gibson.

Well, you've got a lot of nerve!

I would bet that Meng, if he saw the resentment from the folks who are angry about their $199 spent in 2016 with a company dissolved by Gibson in 2017 that Meng didn't purchase (he merely purchased some of their assets) that he didn't anticipate this kind of reaction and venom directed at him. Seriously folks, from Meng's perspective, he just spent 5 years building what he expected was goodwill with this community and never charged us a cent and there are people angry with him about $199 they spent in 2016 with a company dissolved in 2017 -- a company that Meng didn't buy and an offer that Meng had absolutely nothing to do with. He's only invested money in buying some of the assets of that company from Gibson in 2018 and has never seen a penny of our money-- no revenue for his investment--yet still, some people folks feel morally justified that he should be giving them free product for life??? Other companies bought assets from that fire sale too. But you likely wouldn't hold them responsible for the business agreements made by the defunct Cakewalk Inc owned by Gibson because they're not using the Cakewalk website, trademarks or any of the software code from the former Cakewalk Inc. Bandlab doesn't have a legal or ethical responsibility to take on an offer between Cakewalk Inc/Gibson and its customers. Bandlab didn't buy Cakewalk Inc, just some of their assets. And someone taking their vitriol and directing it at a fellow forum member for merely making those points and misrepresenting a completely unrelated situation between me and a sample developer who didn't provide any customer support for his products for 11 months who made personal, defamatory attacks on his customer (me) when the customer shared that story publicly is not the moral equivalent of this scenario and it's an insult, not just to me, but to Meng's integrity to make that comparison. People are dumping on a company that has been ethical and has been incredibly generous misdirecting their resentment about their bad experience in 2016 with a different corporation called Cakewalk Inc that was owned by Gibson and was dissolved in 2017. Gibson was responsible for Cakewalk's agreements. They didn't sell that responsibility to Bandlab. Cakewalk inc was not purchased by Bandlab, some of its assets were sold to Bandlab. I get that not everyone understands business and seeing the same brand name, the Cakewalk website, and software that is primarily just an updated version of Sonar, results in their confusion, but they're lashing out at the wrong company. You made a contract with Cakewalk Inc, a company owned by Gibson that ceased operations in 2017. Bandlab is not that company. Gibson still exists, so it would make more sense for you to lobby Gibson for a refund or attempt a class action suit against Gibson (although Gibson's 2018 bankruptcy may have limited or ended those obligations; I don't know the answer to that), but Bandlab has no legal or ethical responsibility to give you free product for life. If, by chance, Meng gives a discount to former Sonar registrants, that would simply be a kind gesture, not the result of any legal or moral obligation. I was a Cakewalk customer that used their top of the line versions of Sonar and updated to each new version. I even bought the short lived Project5. But I don't think that Bandlab owes me special pricing merely because they bought the intellectual property rights to the software and trademarks Cakewalk and Sonar. If they named the product something completely different, I'm guessing at least some of the people who currently feel entitled to free product for a lifetime from Bandlab might be less inclined to feel that way.

I agree. They have some pretty cool stuff.

But do you honestly think that even then those folks could abide by that agreement?