sjoens Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 (edited) I wish Cakewalk allowed cc lane patch changes like Samplitude does. Edited November 23, 2023 by sjoens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopStarWannabe Posted November 23, 2023 Share Posted November 23, 2023 On 11/22/2023 at 6:17 AM, Promidi said: What ever host you use, VST3 VSTi plugins do not respond to program changes Sorry to interrupt here, but I have just recorded 2 Program Change messages from my MIDI Controller into a Cakewalk Instrument Track having the VST3 version of Reaktor 6.5.0 with the Kontour instrument on it. Afterwards I played back the track and it works: the patch changed 2 times. Important to mention that Kontour is a synth using only single cycle waves and NOT a sampler. For example the synth Rapture (which is VST 2) won't accept program changes because the loading of the samples will make that imposible to use during a song playback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Promidi Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 (edited) 9 hours ago, PopStarWannabe said: Sorry to interrupt here, but I have just recorded 2 Program Change messages from my MIDI Controller into a Cakewalk Instrument Track having the VST3 version of Reaktor 6.5.0 with the Kontour instrument on it. Afterwards I played back the track and it works: the patch changed 2 times. Some plugins might get around it somehow. AAS VST3 synths definitely do not respond to program changes, where as their VST2 synths do. Edited November 24, 2023 by Promidi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjoens Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 I'm confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Promidi Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, sjoens said: I'm confused. Sorry, I flubbed my original post (now corrected). If program changes are important to you with plugins, then choose the VST2 version of a given plugin (if available). Program changes will not be guaranteed with VST3 plugins (regardless of DAW or host). Edited November 24, 2023 by Promidi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pseudopop Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 On 11/21/2023 at 8:15 AM, Promidi said: And then there is the issue that VST3 does not support program change MIDI events. VST2 does. I don't think this is true. I did a bit of googling, and there are multiple statements from Steinberg which can be summarized to: Quote VST3 plugins must follow the VST3 protocol, which promotes all MIDI messages in a well defined and modern format. It is up to the plugin to support whichever MIDI messages it receives from the host. Many plugins don’t support program change in the first place, but nothing is beeing [sic] taken away, and Program Change messages are promoted to all plugins receiving MIDI just like with VST2, albeit in VST3 format. So if program changes do not work with a VST3 version of a plugin, that is because the plugin developer didn't follow the VST3 spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User 905133 Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 (edited) I remember a time when none of my VST3s responded to Program Change commands but their VST2 counterparts did. Then (using Voltage Modular's Plugin Host module and Mini Plugin Host module) I saw that some VST3s did expose the Program Change command. I haven't explored this in a while but the A|A|S Player (for example) does. Thus the knob and Control Voltages can be used to do Program Changes. Off hand I don't remember which VST3s I have do and don't support Program Changes, but I have found more plugins do than previously. IIRC this does not necessarily mean that Cakewalk will process the command. I'd have to check, but I recall having issues in Cakewalk. Not sure if that has changed. UPDATE: Unless I am missing a setting to enable it, the VST3 version of the AAS Player still does not respond to Program Changes in Cakewalk (the last version used) when inserted as an Instrument. However, when I inserted Voltage Modular with the VST3 version of the AAS Player as an Instrument, the Plug-in Host module's controls do change the preset but incoming midi commands don't. To me this might suggest that Cakewalk is syphoning off the incoming and recorded program change commands. (Just a guess because I have no idea what Cakewalk does with midi under the hood.) Edited November 28, 2023 by User 905133 edits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Stanton Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 yeah, the VST3 specification does not support the use of raw MIDI control like program change - except - vendors can implement it if they want to. most do not and simply wrap their VST2 code with the VST3 API and drop some of the functionality 😞 like the AAS Lounge Lizard - VST2 => program change - perfect; VST3 => nada. and i've tried a bunch of other products' VST3 VI and the same issue. so now i selectively enable the VST2 version of VI i regularly use and disable the VST3 version (to prevent the masking option) and this has relieved somewhat. Toontrack is one example of products which are VST3 only and are annoying because of the lack of support for program change via MIDI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User 905133 Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 (edited) FWIW, I just created a very simple Voltage Modular preset that takes CC 18 from my usb keyboard (coming from Cakewalk) converts it to a CV to change the A|A|S Player's patches when the player is hosted in VM within Cakewalk. Likewise, CC 18s recorded or placed on a Cakewalk track hosting VM can be used to switch patches. Edited November 28, 2023 by User 905133 delete blank lines 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User 905133 Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 30 minutes ago, Glenn Stanton said: Toontrack is one example of products which are VST3 only and are annoying because of the lack of support for program change via MIDI. Yup! And some manufacturers have decided not to implement even CC controls. I was disappointed that a couple of PSP Stomp Boxes I pick up were ones from after they updated their products to exclude MIDI. I never became fluent with automation, but I suspect they do work with automation. I do understand how automation technology works and have used it, but turning a knob or moving a slider is easier for me and is more ingrained in my brain. Maybe Cakewalk Next and Cakewalk Sonar will make automation as easy as using knobs and sliders mapped to user CCs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pseudopop Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 I just spent way too much time reading about the MIDI support in VST3 and plugin formats in general, and I stand corrected. It looks like what Steinberg is saying is technically true, but they are simply obfuscating the real issues and MIDI support as a whole is pretty bad/complicated in VST3. It's as if they thought MIDI just isn't important. A really strange decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Stanton Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 and the idea that using automation instead of MIDI fails when plugins don't have automation on their controls... and technically, VST3 can use MIDI, with the caveat that a) it's not to the specification if you do code it; b) it's a bit of extra work and realistically, if plugin developers started to do it regularly, Steinberg could pull their license or alter any supporting libraries to screw it up more... does CLAP support full MIDI and automation in the specification / libraries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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