Beginner CbB and MIDI-user trying to get SSD5 sampler to play thru a TD-17 and failing.

[Twub]

 

 

As demanded; a new thread.

 

"In Cakewalk's Preferences > MIDI > Devices, do you see your TD-17 listed as an Input and Output device, and does it have a check mark in it?"

 

Yes,  Check marked on both input and output.

Under "Outputs", Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth, which I understand is some relevant aspect of my PCs soundcard, is NOT checked.

Inserting a new MIDI track, arming for recording and recording a series of snare-hits produces a recording that plays that back. 

The track itself under "In/Out" shows "All Inputs" for Inputs and "1-TD-17" for the Output. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Twub
Copy/Paste commentary from another thread into the new.

[mettelus]

I just looked at the other thread quickly. This thread title seems like you are trying to get SSD5 to play through the TD-17? I just wanted to clarify that (has its own editing issues), and be a more complex routing setup. Let's rewind a bit, since you are new...

First, MIDI is only note information (no sound), and the TD kits (I am familiar with the TD-9) have a MIDI path and and audio one. I think this is why the VST Instruments (VSTi) got mentioned in the other thread. With MIDI, you can record each kit piece to its own track, but if you record the audio output (what you tailored), you get "everything" back as one combined audio track. Seems the hat was too loud so you wanted to be able to edit the individual pieces.

Quick answer to the question is that if you are sending MIDI to the TD-17, you must also be receiving the audio output from the TD-17 back into a new audio track in Cakewalk with the input echo (speaker icon) enabled. MIDI will then go to the TD-17, get processed with your kit setup, and come back to Cakewalk as audio, but as one track rather than separate pieces. (This is a pain, since editing is simpler with the pieces on different tracks).

If you record a performance as MIDI, you can record one piece per track, but would need to then record each track individually (solo each piece, MIDI to the TD-17, and record the audio from the TD-17 back to a new track in Cakewalk). Optionally, you could use the same routing, but record them all into one audio track, but that limits editing options for the audio at that point.

Pay attention when setting up tracks for if it is MIDI or audio, and what the input/output is for each track. Any MIDI must be processed into audio (either by a VSTi or hardware) in order to then be recorded as audio on a new track. Setting up VSTis can be complex unto themselves, so trying not to bury you with information here.

[Lord Tim]

4 hours ago, Twub said:

"Cakewalk's Preferences > MIDI > Devices, do you see your TD-17 listed as an Input and Output device, and does it have a check mark in it?"

Yes,  Check marked on both input and output.

Under "Outputs", Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth, which I understand is some relevant aspect of my PCs soundcard, is NOT checked.

Inserting a new MIDI track, arming for recording and recording a series of snare-hits produces a recording that plays that back. 

The track itself under "In/Out" shows "All Inputs" for Inputs and "1-TD-17" for the Output. 

Ok, this is all good signs.

Your interface is installed properly, it's selected in Cakewalk, and when you record MIDI to a track, it records and even triggers the sound on your module.

Great!

Ignore any other devices or anything you see for now (eg: the GM wavetable synth), it's not relevant.

Right, the thing to understand about MIDI (as was mentioned)  is it's just data - it doesn't make its own sound at all. When you play a snare on your TD-17, it says to Cakewalk: "righto, this is Note 38, it's being played with THIS velocity, for THIS duration" so when you record that and play it back, it's essentially telling whatever device or synth it's being sent to "here's the note number, velocity and duration I want you to play" and it's up to the synth or device to work out how to play it. In the case of the TD-17, it should be exactly what you expect.

The problems come in when synths or devices don't use the same note numbers for their sounds, so Note 38 on your TD-17 might be a snare when you play it, but Note 38 may be a shaker on a synth, or not even assigned at all so you hear nothing back. This is where I think you're getting tangled the most.

So now we know the MIDI is recording, our next step is to put in a drum synth.

Press B to open the Browser (that's the panel on the right of the screen that shows your plugins, synths, notes, audio library, etc). Go to the Plugins tab at the top, and you want to click the Instruments button to show the list of synths you have installed. In there you'll see SSD5.

One important thing to know about synths is they can make 2 kinds of tracks: a Simple Instrument Track (SIT) or split MIDI and Audio tracks. The SIT is a simple way of combining a MIDI track with the synth when it's inserted into the project so it keeps clutter down, but it can sometimes make it a bit hard to understand what you're recording, or sending the output to. Split tracks are what I'll recommend here.

We won't worry about separate individual drum outputs at this point, let's just get your MIDI to make a synth play sounds.

If you drag SSD5 to a blank spot on the track header area (where you insert tracks, like that MIDI one you tried earlier) you should get a dialogue box come up with options for inserting the synth.

You want it to make a MIDI source track, and first Synth Output. If Simple Instrument Track is checked, uncheck that. Don't choose any extra outputs or anything here yet. (If you don't see this dialogue screen with these options, you may need to enable it in the Synth Rack options, but let's cross that bridge if we get to it)

After the synth has been dragged in you should see 2 tracks:  a synth audio track, and a MIDI track. The MIDI track should automatically have its output set to the synth you just inserted - SSD5.

Set the MIDI track input to your TD-17. If you hit a pad now, this should be making the synth make noises. If not, we'll get to that. It'll also be making noises of its own so it might be an idea to disconnect the audio outputs of your TD-17 for now, we only want to hear what the MIDI is playing.

OK, now arm the MIDI track, set Cakewalk recording and hit around your kit - try every pad, play a groove, etc

You should see the MIDI data on that track now. If you rewind and play it, this data is now being sent to SSD5 instead of your TD-17 because the output is set to SSD5.

If the notes line up on SSD5 with the notes you have on the TD-17 you'll hear it do what you expect. If it doesn't, then it's likely the note mapping is different and that needs sorting out next.

Let's get to this point first so we have a baseline before we continue so everyone is on the same page.

Sorry if this is a bit all over the place, I'm posting from memory on my phone!

 

[Twub]

I downloaded the free SSD5.

After screwing up on where I put the files in my hard drive, I eventually got them so that 

SSDSampler5

shows up in CbB under INSTRUMENTS in a folder called DRUMS that it shares with SI-Drumkit.

If I either drag SSDSampler5 over to the Tracks Pane, or optionally double-click SSDSampler5, I get a pop up

 

I hit OK

 

Two tracks appear in the Tracks Pane.

 

 

The top one is an audio track. Although, earlier when I was inserting  audio tracks from the dropdown and recording me as audio, the icon for those looked like a squiggly waveform.

 

The second track is a MIDI track. 

Now, if I click the icons in EITHER of these tracks, I get the SSD5 graphic with the kit shown. 

In the free SSD5 version, there's three kits.

I double click on that kit's title and I watch it load quickly with these counting-up percentage graphics that appear on every piece of the kit. 

At this point, when I hit any part of my Td-17, I see the corresponding piece on the SSD5 graphic highlight in response. 

But I hear the current kit from the TD-17.

Regardless of which track I have highlighted in CbB, and regardless of which track's icon I click on, to show the SSD5 graphic and select a kit, this all goes the same way. 

So, OK. It looks like I need to maybe map this, so I can hear the SSD5 sounds...

So I go to map on the SSD5 screen.

 

A couple hundred hours ago, I made a preset here called MY TD17 but it's identical to the default preset cause I haven't been able to do anything from this point. 

My own kick shows up as triggering the C1 36 "Kick Center" slot on this screen. 

I hear the Roland's Kick. 

I hit the MIDI LEARN button for "Kick Center" and get a pop up that says 

"Hit MIDI Note" and a cancel button under it. 

I hit C1 36 "Kick Center" with the mouse. It plays that sound. The "Hit MIDI Note" pop up dissappears. 

I hit MY kick after selecting MIDI LEARN on C1 36 "Kick Center". 

The Roland's kick plays. The "Hit MIDI Note" pop up dissappears. 

Set as default, load a preset for a TD 30, save preset... nothing changes. 

I would have at least thought that using some alien preset would have at least let me hear the WRONG sounds on my kit, but only the kit currently selected in my module will play. 

I'm missing something critical. Is it how I have the ins and outs for these tracks set? 

 

[Twub]

8 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

Ok, this is all good signs.

Your interface is installed properly, it's selected in Cakewalk, and when you record MIDI to a track, it records and even triggers the sound on your module.

Great!

Hey that other post I just put up was in response to Mettelus. I'm going thru this latest post of yours now. 

Seems I know about as much of thread-protocol as I do CbB. 

[Lord Tim]

OK, so the reason you're hearing your TD-17 when you play it is the audio outputs are still coming in via your Scarlett. You want to disconnect them for now.

You want to ONLY be recording MIDI and then letting that MIDI play SSD5.  You only want to be arming the MIDI track of those 2 tracks you put in so it records the data rather than any sounds because the synth itself will be playing the sounds live.

No drama about threads - this can get crossed up all the time, especially if someone replies between other replies. This is why I was suggesting we pull it back to basics and go step by step. It sounds like you're ahead of the steps I've mentioned so far though, but it never hurts to take a "tell it to me like I'm 5 years old" approach sometimes because it's easy to jump from point A to point C and not understand how the stuff in point B can really affect you later.

 

[Lord Tim]

OK, so next questions then:

It looks like SSD5 is seeing your MIDI data, and each kit piece is being highlighted that it's being hit, and it looks like you've gotten to the point of working out mapping.

Dumb question time:

Have you got your SSD5 audio output set to your Scarlett outputs, and is the Scarlett connected to speakers or headphones?

If you click around the SSD5 kit with your mouse, do you hear each kit piece?

[Twub]

28 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

Set the MIDI track input to your TD-17. If you hit a pad now, this should be making the synth make noises. If not, we'll get to that. It'll also be making noises of its own so it might be an idea to disconnect the audio outputs of your TD-17 for now, we only want to hear what the MIDI is playing.

OK, now arm the MIDI track, set Cakewalk recording and hit around your kit - try every pad, play a groove, etc

You should see the MIDI data on that track now. If you rewind and play it, this data is now being sent to SSD5 instead of your TD-17 because the output is set to SSD5.

 

17 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

If you click around the SSD5 kit with your mouse, do you hear each kit piece?

All good info. 

Ok, so after doing that I get a signal to the MIDI track. It's clear there's a signal there. 

Arming and Recording produced a visible recording. 

No sound on playback. 

Put the stereo ins back into the interface for playback. No sound. 

Yes, to hearing the SSD5 over the speakers with mouse clicks. 

Sounds great by the way. Especially the snare, which is a thing I mess with constantly in the Roland.

 

[Twub]

Oh, and no sound during recording either. 

Just sticks on mesh. 

(I won't have to unplug these audio ins to record, will I?) 

Can't I just mute something or other?  Like that fellow who redid his video for me said?

[Lord Tim]

1 hour ago, Twub said:

 

All good info. 

Ok, so after doing that I get a signal to the MIDI track. It's clear there's a signal there. 

Arming and Recording produced a visible recording. 

No sound on playback. 

Put the stereo ins back into the interface for playback. No sound. 

Yes, to hearing the SSD5 over the speakers with mouse clicks. 

Sounds great by the way. Especially the snare, which is a thing I mess with constantly in the Roland.

Yeah, the SSD snare is pretty great, and I'm not sure what toms you have in the free version, but I haven't yet found toms in any drum synth that sound as good as SSD's ones as far as dynamics goes for fast playing - so long as you're not maxing out the velocity on every hit, you really avoid that crappy bad drum machine sound that most synths and modules give you.

The reason you're not getting any sound back when you plugged the TD-17 audio back in is the MIDI isn't going there - it's going to SSD5.

It's good that you're hearing sound out from SSD5 - that means your audio routing is set up right to hear the synth.

59 minutes ago, Twub said:

Oh, and no sound during recording either. 

Just sticks on mesh. 

(I won't have to unplug these audio ins to record, will I?) 

Can't I just mute something or other?  Like that fellow who redid his video for me said?

Yeah you can. I was trying to eliminate as many variables as possible here. You'd either turn down the module's volume or mute it in the Scarlett's control panel application. For now, let's just unplug to make that a separate issue so we're not tripping over anything.

 

So you're getting MIDI in OK, you're getting audio from the synth out OK. You have your MIDI track going to SSD5.

This is going to come down to either 2 things:

Note mapping is set up wrong, or the MIDI channel is wrong.

MIDI devices have channels (like a TV in a way) where you can change channels per device if you want to. Drums are typically on Channel 10 from a lot of drum machines or modules. Not always, but it's something to keep in mind.

Now that you have a MIDI track of drums that you know is going to SSD, let's see if we can force it to use whatever channel SSD is expecting. 

On that MIDI track you should see all of your controls for input, output, channel, bank and patch in there. If you don't, at the top of the track view you'll see a dropdown box for Track Control Manager.  It may say Custom, which can hide some controls to keep things clean, but setting it to All will show all of the track controls.

On the Channel dropdown control in the MIDI track (the one with a C), try setting it to Channel 1 first of all. If there's no sound when you start playback, try Channel 10.

If neither of these things are getting SSD to play, this is where I'd say it's going to be a mapping thing.

[Twub]

41 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

On that MIDI track you should see all of your controls for input, output, channel, bank and patch in there. If you don't, at the top of the track view you'll see a dropdown box for Track Control Manager.  It may say Custom, which can hide some controls to keep things clean, but setting it to All will show all of the track controls.

On the Channel dropdown control in the MIDI track (the one with a C), try setting it to Channel 1 first of all. If there's no sound when you start playback, try Channel 10.

If neither of these things are getting SSD to play, this is where I'd say it's going to be a mapping thing.

"Tracks" dropdown shows this:

No "Custom" or "All" , but everything in the pop up is checked.  

The "C" dropdown was set to NONE as you see. 

Setting to Channel 1: No sound

Setting to Channel 10 : No Sound.

On this playback, that is. The Roland is loud and clear thru the speakers when I smack something on it. 

[Lord Tim]

Yeah, the dropdown I was talking about was this one:

I usually have it set to all, but as you discovered you can also get to these controls in the Track Inspector.

OK, this is sounding like the mapping is set up wrong in SSD5 so the notes you're playing on your TD-17 aren't lining up with the notes assigned to each drum in SSD5.

But just to double check, let's see what's actually in these tracks.

Go to Views > Event List

That should open up in the Multidock and tell you about every MIDI note and channel you recorded earlier. Give us a screenshot of that.

I'd still suggest this is in SSD5, but this will tell us exactly what you recorded. It might be a good idea to wipe that existing track and then on the kit, go around and record Kick / Snare / Tom 1 / Tom 2 / Tom 3, etc. so you can clearly see what notes it's sending in and on what channel, etc.

[Twub]

26 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

That should open up in the Multidock and tell you about every MIDI note and channel you recorded earlier. Give us a screenshot of that.

 

Looks like there was about two seconds or so that didn't fit this screen

 

[Twub]

Here is 

Snare, rim, T1, rim, T2, rim, T3, rim, T4, rim, Kick, C1 bow, C1 edge, C2 bow, C2 edge, Ride bow, ride edge, HH pedal (I think I did that twice) HH open bow, HH open edge, HH closed bow, HH closed edge. 

I never did hit the ride bell. Sorry. I never use it. I usually just make the bow a bell. 

[Lord Tim]

OK, looks like your MIDI data is indeed coming in on Channel 10, so if you leave it as NONE in the Channel on the MIDI track, that's what it'll use. If you set it to anything else, it'll force it to use that channel, so I'm surprised that either 1 or 10 isn't sounding. Those note names seem pretty close to General MIDI ones too, so it should line up somewhere even if it's not 100% 1:1 perfect.

This is sounding like the note mapping has screwed up somewhere in SSD5.

If you're able to hear sound by clicking on the drums in the SSD5 interface, that tells me that the kit is loaded and the output is assigned properly, and it's coming out of your audio interface.

Try going into the MIDI Mapping page of SSD5 and doing a Default or switching over to General MIDI (if it's there). Does that do anything?

Perhaps some hints on this page: https://support.stevenslatedrums.com/hc/en-us/articles/360033680013-MIDI-Learn-and-Mapping-in-SSD5-5

As far as Cakewalk is concerned, everything you've done here looks like it should be working, so the problem is inside SSD5 somewhere.

After you get that solved, we can talk about setting up multi-outs so you can do the track split stuff you first asked about.

 

[Twub]

[Twub]

Yes Ok. 

couple minutes...

[Twub]

oh and remember how I said that the audio track AND the MIDI track open the SSD5 page?

Does that matter which?

[Twub]

To start with, I'm getting my kit to play these SSD5 sounds straight off, with no going to the mapping page. 

I again unplugged both the audios from the interface, and there they are as I play the Roland. 

Went back and wiped that track, and recorded again. 

It's working, but I must say I don't know what happened other than the Roland's audio was obscuring these SSD5 sounds. The SSD5 is somewhat muted, well, it's not as loud when triggered by the Roland. 

The sound in the Roland, like demo recordings and the like, are louder and clearer than that which comes from the pads themselves. Maybe that accounts for this lesser SSD5 volume. 

WOW! 

WHAT NOW?

[Lord Tim]

46 minutes ago, Twub said:

oh and remember how I said that the audio track AND the MIDI track open the SSD5 page?

Does that matter which?

No, basically that just opens the synth UI so it all leads to the same place.

 

33 minutes ago, Twub said:

To start with, I'm getting my kit to play these SSD5 sounds straight off, with no going to the mapping page. 

I again unplugged both the audios from the interface, and there they are as I play the Roland. 

Went back and wiped that track, and recorded again. 

It's working, but I must say I don't know what happened other than the Roland's audio was obscuring these SSD5 sounds. The SSD5 is somewhat muted, well, it's not as loud when triggered by the Roland. 

The sound in the Roland, like demo recordings and the like, are louder and clearer than that which comes from the pads themselves. Maybe that accounts for this lesser SSD5 volume. 

WOW! 

WHAT NOW?

 

Yeah it's likely you just had some super hot input happening for the TD-17.  That probably has some extra processing on it too, but this is a good sign!

Now the next thing is a bit tricky.

Start up a new project, then drag over SSD5 into the track header area like you did before, but this time in the dialogue that pops up, put a tick in All Synth Audio Outputs:  Stereo

This will make 1 MIDI track which you'll use to record your playing, and then you'll get a bunch of audio tracks created.

What you'll need to do then is load your preferred SSD5 kit, then name your tracks that were created just to make life easier for yourself, then look at the input for each of those tracks. It'll say Output#1, Output#2, etc.

What you need to do then is go into SSD5's Mix page and look for each drum and set the OUT for each thing to correspond to the tracks that were created:

So you'll see by default here that everything is "out 1 st" which means everything will be coming in on that first audio track that has Output#1 as the input. So you'd change all of the kicks to "out 1 st" in SSD5's mixer, then all of the snares to "out 2 st" so they come in on the second track that has the input set to Output#2 and keep going until you've mapped the kit to each track.

Ideally you'd be using mono tracks for each but it doesn't overly matter too much and that's a bit more work to set up initially.

Then, once that's all done, select every track in your project, right-click on on of the track numbers and do Save as Track Template.

Then, whenever you want to do this all again in a new project, you Insert from Track Template using that one you just saved, and it'll automatically insert SSD5, create all of the tracks, set up the routing we just did and you're basically good to go in a matter of seconds.

But get this all set up how you like it first, because whatever you do now will be saved in the template, including any levels or effects or anything like that.