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Larry Shelby

IK Syntronik 2 Group Buy!

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8 hours ago, JT music said:

IKM is a giant company where its only interest is to get new customers based on irresistible offers and then ambush them with different update strategies where it very skillfully makes you fall on the path of infinite updating and the customer does not fall into the loss of the old and useless instrument. Unfortunately, the clients we have a number after the back and we are no more than that, a real trade IKM by which if not upgraded, lose the product, in my case, after having bought Modo Drums and bass before the unexpected but disreputable new update IKM I desidivo not buy never ANYTHING more.

I guess we're still doing this... You bought MODO DRUM 1.0 at a VERY steep discount.  You felt that getting three kits for less than $/€19/each wasn't a good deal, and then went on to claim you were paying for something "twice" when in fact you would be able to get all of the kits for a price that was far lower than most (and probably lower than most here except those that claimed it via the last group buy) paid.

And we're not giant.  I'm glad that people think that, it feels nice but unfortunately it just isn't the case.

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On 4/21/2022 at 5:53 PM, abacab said:

Yes, but let's be totally transparent here: "The Syntronik 2 version of the original 22 Synths adds new presets built using the updated Syntronik 2 engine that works with the new EDIT page, and it also adds the essential Wave Sets for each Synth that enable you to select the sound in each oscillator."

The v2 clearly adds NEW PRESETS to the 22 original instruments, but DOES NOT convert/upgrade the pre-existing v1 presets to the v2 format! Only the "new" presets supplied are in the v2 compatible format.

I believe that is the root of the confusion and  misunderstanding.

Right, because the v1 synths didn't and cannot contain the new Wave Sets so it would be literally impossible.

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On 4/21/2022 at 4:53 PM, abacab said:

The v2 clearly adds NEW PRESETS to the 22 original instruments, but DOES NOT convert/upgrade the pre-existing v1 presets to the v2 format! Only the "new" presets supplied are in the v2 compatible format.

I believe that is the root of the confusion and  misunderstanding.

For me this was the misunderstanding on my part.

 

1 hour ago, Peter - IK Multimedia said:

Right, because the v1 synths didn't and cannot contain the new Wave Sets so it would be literally impossible.

And once I realized this, I thought "I really don't want Syntronik 2 to change any of my already existing Presets from v1."

So it's makes sense that v2 would leave them old presets alone!!

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1 hour ago, Grem said:
On 4/21/2022 at 2:53 PM, abacab said:

The v2 clearly adds NEW PRESETS to the 22 original instruments, but DOES NOT convert/upgrade the pre-existing v1 presets to the v2 format! Only the "new" presets supplied are in the v2 compatible format.

I believe that is the root of the confusion and  misunderstanding.

For me this was the misunderstanding on my part.

This was it for me also, and not really understanding what the Edit button did. I assumed that the Edit button was for editing all the parameters of a synth not just the Wave Sets. So I thought that if S2 CS and SE did not upgrade V1 synths, I was stuck with the V1 presets as is with no way to modify them. I was wrong of course.

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I will say that now that there is "ZERO discount" at all in buying Credits, credits are a waste of time...
Just have Jampoints and be done with it.  Credits are now actually a detriment, as when you
buy with credits, the products purchased are NFR, so there is now absolutely NO REASON
to use credits whatsoever!  When bulk buying was discounted, that was an acceptable 
price to pay, but now it's pointless!

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8 hours ago, Peter - IK Multimedia said:

You picked that apart well but completely missed the point as I was replying directly to someone especially with the "completely transparent" phrase which was exactly what the person to whom I replied referred to, transparency.

Sorry but you seem to have taken things a bit to heart over an out-of-context understanding of my reply to someone.  I understand that you might want to take me and.or IK to task but I feel you completely missed the mark/target here as I've posted the FAQ from Erik Norlander himself which explains everything.  And the rest of the parts of the message that seem to offend you also refer to the FAQ that I've posted and to which I thought I was clear as well but I, too, can make mistakes.  In case that was missed, the FAQ is https://www.ikmultimedia.com/faq/?id=1431

TL;DR - I think you completely misunderstood my reply, please refer to the FAQ which explains clearly and concisely.  That FAQ was the "interactional communication" you were seeking.  I now feel like I've fallen into a self-help book parody like Ricken's book in Severance.

We will have to agree to disagree. I have looked at other instances of the customer confusion and have seem similar instances of miscommunication.  I was trying to be helpful because I have noticed among IK users what be might called be a love-hate relationship: Many users really love the virtual gear and at the same time have major issues with things IK does and doesn't do.  I could be wrong but to me the issues seem to cause things like confusion, frustration, disappointment and in some cases  resentment of how IK treats customers.  

As I wrote above:

On 4/22/2022 at 4:27 PM, User 905133 said:

I get the impression that there has been a lack of recognition of responsibility in the miscommunication.

"We said it clearly. [Hyperbolized implication to get the point across:] Its your problem that you didn't understand what we intended by our words."

   By the way, as for this (the prior reference to transparency) to which you say I misunderstood your reply:

On 4/21/2022 at 5:53 PM, abacab said:

Yes, but let's be totally transparent here: "The Syntronik 2 version of the original 22 Synths adds new presets built using the updated Syntronik 2 engine that works with the new EDIT page, and it also adds the essential Wave Sets for each Synth that enable you to select the sound in each oscillator."

The v2 clearly adds NEW PRESETS to the 22 original instruments, but DOES NOT convert/upgrade the pre-existing v1 presets to the v2 format! Only the "new" presets supplied are in the v2 compatible format.

I believe that is the root of the confusion and  misunderstanding.

I agree completely. In fact I agreed when I first read it. In addition, I went a few steps beyond and offered an explanation from communication theory for how I believe the confusion and miscommunication was based on what's known as "bypassing." 

Unfortunately, based on your reply it seems to me that you did not appreciate my explanation.  I was hoping you would see the value in it. 

I stand by my analysis which I offered freely and openly of how in this case "bypassing" led to repeated attempts by several IK consumers to get clarification. 

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1 hour ago, cclarry said:

I will say that now that there is "ZERO discount" at all in buying Credits, credits are a waste of time...
Just have Jampoints and be done with it.  Credits are now actually a detriment, as when you
buy with credits, the products purchased are NFR, so there is now absolutely NO REASON
to use credits whatsoever!  When bulk buying was discounted, that was an acceptable 
price to pay, but now it's pointless!

Unless you’ve still got some …

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8 hours ago, Grem said:

So it makes sense that v2 would leave them old presets alone!!

Hey, Peter, leave them sets alone! ;)

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, JT music said:

IKM is a giant company where its only interest is to get new customers based on irresistible offers and then ambush them with different update strategies where it very skillfully makes you fall on the path of infinite updating and the customer does not fall into the loss of the old and useless instrument. Unfortunately, the clients we have a number after the back and we are no more than that, a real trade IKM by which if not upgraded, lose the product, in my case, after having bought Modo Drums and bass before the unexpected but disreputable new update IKM I desidivo not buy never ANYTHING more.

10 hours ago, Peter - IK Multimedia said:

I guess we're still doing this... You bought MODO DRUM 1.0 at a VERY steep discount.  You felt that getting three kits for less than $/€19/each wasn't a good deal, and then went on to claim you were paying for something "twice" when in fact you would be able to get all of the kits for a price that was far lower than most (and probably lower than most here except those that claimed it via the last group buy) paid.

And we're not giant.  I'm glad that people think that, it feels nice but unfortunately it just isn't the case.

Yesterday, independent of these two posts, I wrote a draft of an analysis of how bypassing likely played a role in the confusion - frustration - dissatisfaction chain of reactions related to the upgrade/update to MODO DRUM based on different ways in which "1.5" was linked to "MODO DUM."

At the end I distanced myself from what I saw as IK bashing on the part of some IK product users since I wanted to emphasize a positive, constructive approach.

Unfortunately, new posts erase the forum reply edit buffer and I don't think I saved it in notepad.  Found it!  (See below.)

Decades ago I learned to dislike what I call "defense wars" when it comes to communication.  From what I have seen, it doesn't lead to positive outcomes.  On the other hand, I believe that reaching out in openness can often resolve issues including those based on miscommunication. 

Quote

By the way, it seems to me that another example of miscommunication based on bypassing (which sometimes leads to consumer resentment based on confusion and sometimes disappointment), has to do with other "upgrades/updates" such as the MODO DRUMS 1.0 to 1.5 .   Bypassing as a form of misunderstanding often stems from people having different meanings for words, phrases, etc. In the case of MODO DRUMS, two things happened at the same time (from what I can tell):

  • New features were added, including
    • the ability to have more than the 10 original kits
  • New kits were made available for an extra cost,
    • either as an upgrade, or as ala carte kit purchases.

In this case, confusion was added to the mix because IK used "1.5" attached to "MODO DRUMS" to mean two different things.

  • "MODO DRUM 1.5 is IK's newly expanded physical modeling drum virtual instrument. Using a powerful combination of modal synthesis and advanced sampling, MODO DRUM 1.5 now gives you 13 deeply customizable virtual drum kits and a wider choice of versions to suit your needs." 
    • Here its clear that "1.5" makes "MODO DRUM" a new product (different than MODO DRUM 1.0.
    • NOTE: The Website says "NEW VERSION 1.5."
  • At the same time, existing owners of "MODO DRUM" were offered (via the Product Manager, etc.) to update MODO DRUM to "1.5:"   "MODO DRUM - Ver. 1.5.0 - Release Notes - Changes from the previous version (1.1.3):"

After some confusion (and some disappointment) and after various attempts to point out the difference between MODO DRUM  1.5 as a new product and MODO DRUM 1.5 as MODO DRUM [1.0] with an update to the underlying engine, some consumers "got it" (that is, they understood the difference).

My point here is not to bash IK.  I have recognized in the forum here what might be called a love-hate relationship.  "We love some/many of the products, but we really hate ___________________________________________." (Fill-in your own personal gripe about what IK does or doesn't do.)  I have recognized that Peter tries to help consumers and I am never sure if his hands are tied or if maybe he also experiences frustrations with the organization--maybe things he has no control over. 

So, my goal in addressing miscommunication and "bypassing" is to     

I didn't finish the last sentence because I was grappling with how to say say something like, "show how words and their presentation can lead to misunderstandings," "build a bridge between consumers and IK," and a few other similar ideas.

I had more or less decided not to post this, but based on the two quotes above (what I saw as IK bashing + a defensive grenade launched as a reply) I decided it is relevant and might even serve a useful purpose.

-------------

@Peter - IK Multimedia As for the main topic (the Syntronik 2 Group Buy), just so you know, I have repeatedly stated in several places that I really like (a) having four "Oscillator" layers and (b) the option to choose from the wave sets to tweak/design my own presets.  As for my own consumer behavior I am still open to participating in the Group Buy even though it might be better for me personally to wait.

So, please don't lump me into the category with "IK bashers" because I have tried to explain what I see as "bypassing."  

Edited by User 905133
typo cxorrection
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12 minutes ago, Fleer said:

Unless you’ve still got some …

It would be nice if they allowed buying however many gear credits one needs to make them usable (e.g. in addition to the ones we have), instead of the set values. No point for the latter, now that the discounts have been removed. Or at least make everything available in the Custom Shop (sounds download credits, license transfer credits). 

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4 hours ago, cclarry said:

Credits are now actually a detriment, as when you buy with credits, the products purchased are NFR . . . .

I see that the Transfer Button (under My Products > Serials/Licenses) goes to a FAQ which states "Please note that not all software is transferable. Items received for free via a promotion are not transferable. Purchases made inside of the Custom Shop using Gear Credits are not transferable to another user or account."

Do you know (or have an idea) what would happen if someone bought a transfer token and tried to transfer an item that was purchased in the Custom Shop using Gear Credits?  I have several things that I "bought" that I don't use that I might want to sell so I can get some of those snazzy, new-fangled Syntronik 2 Instruments.  Thanks.

image.png.77e7b68b566808cea1b770ebfa2807f0.png

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Fleer said:

Hey, Peter, leave them sets alone! ;)

Now I got the Floyd running through my head.

Edited by Doug Rintoul
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Let’s see… this is where I’m at:

- Purchased all the synths from the last GB

- Still recouping from the last GB

- Haven’t had the time to fully use all the synths yet… last GB still too fresh

- Upgrade to ver 2 seems too confusing and very much a hassle

- These synths are sample-based (I knew what I was getting myself into.  It just makes you really appreciate VSTs like  Arturia V Collection that don’t take up a lot of HD space)

- This is a big one for me… I still despise IK’s policy on having to pay a fee to re-download content after a certain amount of time has passed. (shady, if you ask me)

 

With that said, I’m very much sitting this one out… maybe indefinitely(we’ll see). Maybe IK should call this a “Gluttonous Buy.” All I know is I’m going to have strict diet and cut out IK.

But hopefully this GB works out for you guys :)

 

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5 hours ago, Fleer said:

Unless you’ve still got some …

You still have some of those you bought years ago? 

Cause I know you haven't purchased more recently!!! LOL!!

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1 hour ago, Lionel said:

This is a big one for me… I still despise IK’s policy on having to pay a fee to re-download content after a certain amount of time has passed. (shady, if you ask me)

I can't understand why people get their panties in such a knot over this one. I know IK Multimedia could foster a lot of good will by doing away with this but it is all of $10 for crying out loud. I have spent more on plugins that turned out to be garbage and were useless to me. Even spent more on duplicate plugins I had forgotten I already had. And IKM is not the only company to expire download access. Some even expire after a week or two. To me 180 days is quite reasonable. 

There are a lot of things to complain about with the way IKM has done stuff in tbe past. This is way down the list for me.

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1 hour ago, Grem said:

You still have some of those you bought years ago? 

Cause I know you haven't purchased more recently!!! LOL!!

Yep, used to be an IK hardware junkie ;)

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33 minutes ago, Doug Rintoul said:

401...6 free synth now.

 

Damn it!! I may end up getting in on this!! The lure is just too strong!!

But I don't even own Syntronik 2....

 

 

 

 

yet!

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1 minute ago, Grem said:

 

Damn it!! I may end up getting in on this!! The lure is just too strong!!

 

Spent my "budget" for this month. Fortunately, April is almost over and the GB will still be going strong in May. Probably like a lot of people, I'll jump in at 10 freebies.

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