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Reid Rosefelt

Steinberg discontinues VST2

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8 minutes ago, Variorum said:

It bothers me a lot that a private company controls a standard as ubiquitous as the (VST) audio plugin interface. Why isn't this an open standard supported by an independent group?

Because this same private company invented it.

8 minutes ago, Variorum said:

Steinberg should relinquish control of it,

Why?

 

9 minutes ago, Variorum said:

or a new 'open' standard should be developed.

Who's stopping you?

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I've always had a hard time believing a company can own an interface. If there were actual code libraries involved that were created by a company, that represents a real product, but VST is just an interface, a collection of function definitions that need to be included in/supported by a DAW and a plugin. It's essentially a standard, not a 'product'. 
It's a standard that's supported (by real code) in a majority of DAWs, plugins, and other audio software. Unfortunately, it's that ubiquity that makes it almost impossible for a new standard to catch on. If that standard was close enough to allow an easy transition for existing software, Steinberg would almost certainly sue.

I don't expect anything to change in the near future, I just wish...¬†ūüôā

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Well, that's a question of intellectual property law.

If Steinberg had decided to call them Cubase plugins instead of VST plugins, then we wouldn't even be having this discussion about ownership. We would just be thrilled that our DAWs
could load them too....

 

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1 hour ago, kevin H said:

They should discontinue AAX also hehe.  Recently while searching for extra space on my ssd I discovered about 40GB of plug-in data that had been automatically installed in an AAX folder. I always uncheck AAX when installing so these were a total surprise to find.  If I move to VST3 exclusively then maybe I can get 80GB back?  That would be amazing. Score.  

I'm still amazed how terrible the installation process is for audio software. Obviously some developers are better than others. I've been running the app 'Everything' for file search on Windows, and I can sometimes find a plugin / instrument's files scattered across 20 different folders - plugin formats all over the place, documentation over here, presets over there, samples over there, images over here, files in Local app data, files in Roaming app data, files in generic users, files in admin user, files in 64 bit program files, files in x86 program files. Native Instruments seems to be the worst...and has been the worst since like 20 years ago.

And if you...god forbid, delete the 32 plugins, which you sometimes have no choice to install, some manufacturers will consider that a "broken installation" in the installation manager. I think iZotope behaves likes this.  "How dare you delete our precious 32-bit files! And did you delete the Russian language documentation! Plugin no longer work. Please reinstall it all again as punishment." 

It's what I love about the Plugin Alliance installer. Simple UI, can select exactly the format I want, filter by what I own, select plugin, installs in like 3 seconds. Almost no bloat at all. Somehow installing a PA synth takes 3 seconds, uses maybe 3 folders, but a Native Instruments synth takes up 20 folders on my drive and needs to install every single plugin format on the market.

Worst offenders: Native Instruments, Waves and iZotope. 

Anyway. Another rant.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Carl Ewing
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You can't get rid of AAX because of Pro Fools. If you want to play ball with Pro Fools, then you got to have AAX.

And of course if you're a developer, then you want to play ball with Pro Fools because it's the "industry standard."

But yeah, why do you ram it down my throat when I can't decide who I dislike more, Avid or Apple and refuse as much as possible to have anything to do with either one of them. You don't force me to install the AU versions.

VST3 is supposed to solve the issue of companies hiding their VST plugins all over your system like they were Easter eggs or something.

 

Edited by bdickens
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9 hours ago, bdickens said:

You can't get rid of AAX because of Pro Fools. If you want to play ball with Pro Fools, then you got to have AAX.

And of course if you're a developer, then you want to play ball with Pro Fools because it's the "industry standard."

But yeah, why do you ram it down my throat when I can't decide who I dislike more, Avid or Apple and refuse as much as possible to have anything to do with either one of them. You don't force me to install the AU versions.

VST3 is supposed to solve the issue of companies hiding their VST plugins all over your system like they were Easter eggs or something.

 

The true adavantages are deeper than that but very few compagnies actually uses vst 3 true power to its full potential ...

The cpu hit throttling when no audio passing is actually a feature all been braging about while i hate it ... i prefer constant loads that dynamic stuff ....

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7 minutes ago, Zo said:

 

The cpu hit throttling when no audio passing is actually a feature all been braging about while i hate it ... i prefer constant loads that dynamic stuff ....

the official advice from Steinberg is to leave that off anyway  as it's broken - like other parts of their VST3 implementation.

https://forums.steinberg.net/t/c11-speed-improvements/159708/15

there's a thread over at KVR that gives more background - but basically SB are desperate to see the back of VST2.  They have been actively trying to force developers to switch.... But lots of developers prefer VST2 and there are certainly plugins that work better in VST2 than 3.   

Progress is fine but this isn't progress - it's just removing functionality.  What's next ? Midi 1.0 ? (so very 1980) - score editing  ?(so very 1880).   

Steinberg can do whatever they want but IMO it's a dumb move, but we've come to expect that from Steinberg over the years.  I'm sure whatever development time is saved will get squandered on a plugin that nobody wants or asked for...or 3rd rate sample library....or more likely improving their new licensing model.

Apple can get away with a depreciating whatever they like because they are worth 3 trillion dollars...SB not so much.

/rantoff :)

 

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I always thought the VST format was an open source for developers to use so until we get to a 128bit operating system I don't see why they still can't use it. We can still run DX stuff in CbB. Surely VST2 won't be going away any time soon.

I dread the day Studio One and/or CbB doesn't support VST2. I still use all the extra's from Sonar in Studio One and CbB. I'd be lost without Session Drummer 3. It's in every single one of my projects. It sounds great, it's easy to set up, I know what all my favorite drum kits do and what they sound like and when/where to use them.

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3 minutes ago, Shane_B. said:

I always thought the VST format was an open source for developers to use

VST is very much not open source.  It requires a license to support/use in a DAW or a plugin.  You have to send Steinberg paperwork (digital but still with a signature) and you get back a license.  And if you didn't do this for VST2 before they closed the window, you cannot ship any VST2 plugins at all.  (yes I registered my company with a  VST2 license before the window closed).  VST2 and VST3 are separate license also.  It's a mess.  This is just the next phase of killing VST2.  Though I don't think they have sued or shut down anyone who didn't get a VST2 license, they always could.  It's one of the reasons some new companies aren't including VST2 versions of plugins, they may not be able to legally get a license to do it.  I don't think they can stop anyone that did get the license before they shut that down from supporting VST2 though.  But they can stop supporting it in their products.

The world would be much better off if VST was an open standard.  But Steinberg won't give it up and no efforts to make a new standard have ever made much headway.

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11 minutes ago, Shane_B. said:

I always thought the VST format was an open source for developers to use so until we get to a 128bit operating system I don't see why they still can't use it. We can still run DX stuff in CbB. Surely VST2 won't be going away any time soon.
 

the VST format was never open source.  It should have been but Steinberg didn't do that.

They pulled the VST2 SDK for new developers years ago and have been trying (by fair means or foul) to pull it from existing developers.

EDIT - matthew beat me to it :)

 

Edited by simon

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12 hours ago, Variorum said:

a new 'open' standard should be developed

check out LADSPA and the second version LV2 -- while not as popular as the proprietary formats, it is open and cross-platform. Even though the "L" stands for linux.

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41 minutes ago, Matthew Sorrels said:

VST is very much not open source.

 

42 minutes ago, simon said:

the VST format was never open source.  It should have been but Steinberg didn't do that.

How do people make free VST's? Or is the cost to get a license minimal? I thought I read that the SDK was free, but I could be wrong. And I guess that doesn't necessarily mean it's open source either even if it is free.

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Just because I love beating a dead horse¬†ūüėČ
If you change a couple words in this sentence, I think it would apply perfectly to the VST interface:

"MIDI is a technical standard that describes a communications protocol, digital interface, and electrical connectors that connect a wide variety of electronic musical instruments, computers, and related audio devices for playing, editing, and recording music."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI

I'd like VST to go this route.

(No horses were harmed in the writing of this post ūüėč)

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58 minutes ago, Variorum said:

(No horses were harmed in the writing of this post ūüėč)

Because they were already deceased, you psychopath.

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u-he is working on this as an alternative to VST/VST3,

CLAP is an open source plug-in format originally designed by Alexandre Bique a few years ago that we currently help to bring forward, along with friends at Bitwig and a whole bunch of other developers from both host and plug-in side.

https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=574861

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14 hours ago, telecode 101 said:

For the most part, i think this dosn't really affect me as i have no plans to upgrade Cubase. But I guess an interesing development. Curious if other DAWs and software will follow in same path.

I think it would likely upset a lot of folks if any other DAW hosts discontinued VST2 support.

There is a large body of plugins that are and forever will be VST2 only, as they are no longer being actively developed. But they are still good plugins.

Only true open source plugins could be picked up and migrated to VST3. For the rest of the VST2 plugins at "end of life" that have proprietary licenses, not so much, especially if the original developer is no longer in business.

But in any eventuality, the workaround would be to use a host within a host, such as PluginGuru's Unify. It's available as a VST3 plugin, and can host VST2 plugin layers internally. They have a small dev team of 1, and I am sure he is not controlled by Steinberg!!! :)

Edited by abacab
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3 hours ago, Matthew Sorrels said:

VST is very much not open source.  It requires a license to support/use in a DAW or a plugin.  You have to send Steinberg paperwork (digital but still with a signature) and you get back a license.  And if you didn't do this for VST2 before they closed the window, you cannot ship any VST2 plugins at all.  (yes I registered my company with a  VST2 license before the window closed).  VST2 and VST3 are separate license also.  It's a mess.  This is just the next phase of killing VST2.  Though I don't think they have sued or shut down anyone who didn't get a VST2 license, they always could.  It's one of the reasons some new companies aren't including VST2 versions of plugins, they may not be able to legally get a license to do it.  I don't think they can stop anyone that did get the license before they shut that down from supporting VST2 though.  But they can stop supporting it in their products.

The world would be much better off if VST was an open standard.  But Steinberg won't give it up and no efforts to make a new standard have ever made much headway.

This might xplain why vertigo vsc 3 isnt vst 2 while vse 2 is ... is it on a per plugins basis or brand and all its release ?

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