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Eezye

punching/monitoring

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hello all! I am having an issue while recording/punching where i can still hear the old recorded audio while i punch over top of it. This occurs with all 3 recording modes. I have tried the mute previous takes option and that just permanently mutes the audio underneath. i am using an amp sim on the track, if that makes any difference. am i missing something somewhere?

I'm coming from cubase... on that program, your older audio/input is silenced as soon as you hit the punch point and all you hear is the monitoring of the instrument until the punch has ended.

hopefully this is clear. any ideas?

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11 hours ago, eezye said:

I have tried the mute previous takes option and that just permanently mutes the audio underneath.

I don't understand how this is not the desired effect.

To clarify: you are recording in Comping Mode, you are trying to punch in a section, you have Auto Punch selected, with Mute Previous Takes checked, and you can still hear the first take and all subsequent punched takes?

Or you can't hear them and you want to?

Or you can't hear your other tracks?

Or your clips are all muted when you're done and you can't figure out how to un-mute them?

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When using comping mode, I want the audio I'm recording over to auto mute... Like I'm layering the new audio over top of the older audio. This is the behavior I'm used to in cubase. When using the mute previous takes option, it just greys out the audio in the punch points, but sometimes I set the punch points wider than the actual part I'm replacing and I can't figure out how to unmute the audio when I'm done... It'd be a lot easier if it just muted automatically.

Edited by eezye

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So you want to rerecord, for example, measures eight through twelve, you set the punch points for six through fourteen, and you want Cakewalk to mute the previous audio while you're recording and then play back the new material from 8 - 12 but also the old material from 6 - 8 and 12 - 14? Do I have that right?

In comp mode, wherever you set the punch points, that's where the recording -- and the "muting" -- occurs. But the new audio is recorded in a new lane, which will be the new "top" lane and thus the only one you'll hear on playback. If your punch points are wider than the actual section you want to play over, the "muted" audio will be in the next lane down. So you'd have to then open the take lanes, select the takes and sections you want to hear, and move them to the top. This is "comping," and it's probably better done at the end, after you have recorded all the takes you expect to need to create a composite track.

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When I'm monitoring during the punch, I do not want to hear the old material on that track at the same time while the punch is occurring. As it is right now, it's 2 audio sources (DIs) being jammed through the amp sim simultaneously and it sounds like a mushy mess. In the manual, it states the audio you are recording over is supposed to be muted while recording is happening with comping and overwrite modes.  This DOES happen if I just press record, but it DOES NOT when using punching. The behavior as it is currently is unusable... Why would you want to hear the old bad take at the same time that you record the new punched take on the same track? This is extremely distracting.

I'm pretty sure at this point that this is a bug, unless there is an option somewhere in the menus that I am missing

EDIT: I guess the behavior that i want, or expect is called "tape style monitoring". Does this exist in cakewalk? if not, i think it'd be a MASSIVELY helpful addition in a future release.

Edited by eezye

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4 hours ago, eezye said:

When I'm monitoring during the punch, I do not want to hear the old material on that track at the same time while the punch is occurring.

The behavior you describe is normal, and that's the way it works for me in any record mode. In Preferences|Project|Record do you have "Auto Punch" checked and "Mute Previous Takes" checked? Any other tracks routed to the one you're recording?

14 hours ago, eezye said:

...sometimes I set the punch points wider than the actual part I'm replacing and I can't figure out how to unmute the audio when I'm done...

When you do this, you are either erasing parts of your track that you don't want to erase (as in Overwite mode) or moving them down to a different take lane (as in Comp mode). Are you saying you want to punch in early, have the existing track muted, but then be able to unmute  that track on playback?

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If the take you don't want is that  bad, ctrl z and start over. You won't hear it then.

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51 minutes ago, Larry Jones said:

 

 

Edited by eezye

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59 minutes ago, Larry Jones said:

When you do this, you are either erasing parts of your track that you don't want to erase (as in Overwite mode) or moving them down to a different take lane (as in Comp mode). Are you saying you want to punch in early, have the existing track muted, but then be able to unmute  that track on playback?

correct, i cant figure out how to unmute the track that's leftover after i record the punch. I apparently have to vastly change my approach to punches if i want to continue using this software. most other DAWs have a "tapemachine style monitoring" option where punches behave like a traditional tape recorder, IE you dont hear the monitor only playback while not recording, and no playback only monitoring while recording. this is my preferred approach but it does not appear to be an option with cakewalk

 

here is a video to demonstrate what i mean: 

 

Edited by eezye

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The default behavior in CbB is just like what's in the video you posted ("tape machine mode"). You arm the track, turn on input echo, roll the transport. You hear the track until you punch in, then you hear the input. When you stop the transport or punch out, you hear the track again. I feel like I'm missing something here. This is the way it works. If it doesn't do this for you, something's wrong, either with your installation or your settings.

Sorry, I don't follow this:

13 minutes ago, eezye said:

...you dont hear the monitor only playback while not recording, and no playback only monitoring while recording.

 

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21 minutes ago, Larry Jones said:

The default behavior in CbB is just like what's in the video you posted ("tape machine mode"). You arm the track, turn on input echo, roll the transport. You hear the track until you punch in, then you hear the input. When you stop the transport or punch out, you hear the track again. I feel like I'm missing something here. This is the way it works. If it doesn't do this for you, something's wrong, either with your installation or your settings.

Sorry, I don't follow this:

 

It is confusing to try to explain in text. In comping mode it works as expected when just hitting record but not when using auto punch. I watched a Cakewalk tutorial that exhibited the same behavior that I'm experiencing so I'm not sure what to think. I've put in a feature request for a tape style monitoring option so maybe someone there can verify this issue further

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45 minutes ago, eezye said:

it works as expected when just hitting record but not when using auto punch

When you just hit record you will only be able to hear the input. When you are punching in, you will hear the track up to the point where you punch in, then it will switch to input. Is this not what's happening? This is the way it worked in the Cubase video you posted. This is the way it works in CbB. Could you describe exactly how you are setting up autopunch?

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21 hours ago, Larry Jones said:

When you just hit record you will only be able to hear the input. When you are punching in, you will hear the track up to the point where you punch in, then it will switch to input. Is this not what's happening? This is the way it worked in the Cubase video you posted. This is the way it works in CbB. Could you describe exactly how you are setting up autopunch?

Hi Larry, tonight I've done some extensive testing and I will try to be as clear as I can about what I've found

using comp mode: when I click the record button with no punch, I correctly monitor only what im playing and not the track underneath

when i use punch, when the scrollbar hits the punch in, i hear both what im playing AND the audio underneath(it sounds exactly like "sound on sound" mode), as in 2 sources of audio at once.

Both of these scenerios are with "mute previous takes" UNCHECKED

when I then CHECK the "mute previous takes" box to try to use comp without hearing 2 audio sources playing at once while recording, it greys out the audio that is in the punch region as soon as i click record. this would be fine if i could unmute the greyed out waveform somehow, but I'm not sure if that is possible

Edited by eezye

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You just click on the muted clip and hit the K button

47 minutes ago, eezye said:

if i could unmute the greyed out waveform somehow, but I'm not sure if that is possible

 

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So are you wanting to hear both guitars playing together after you do your punch? If so, use separate tracks. Otherwise...

...When you punch in in comp mode with "Mute Previous Takes" checked (that's the way to do it), the existing audio in the punch region is muted and moved down to the next "Take Lane." You can see the take lanes by opening them using the button in the left end of the timeline. See here for details on this. I don't work this way myself, so I'm rusty, but if, after you've done a punch, you then want to hear your earlier take, you can open the take lanes (at first there will be just the top track and one lane), click on your punched-in audio and (as @Base 57 says above) press "K" on your keyboard to unmute it and, I believe, promote it up to the top track. But for me, the point of comp mode and take lanes is to do a number of takes -- either complete or partial -- and when you are done, composite or comp a track using the best sections of your playing. I gather you want to hear the old take as soon as you've done a new take?

I hope this makes sense to you. I'm still not entirely sure what your end goal is here, so help me if I've got it wrong.

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25 minutes ago, Larry Jones said:

So are you wanting to hear both guitars playing together after you do your punch? If so, use separate tracks. Otherwise...

...When you punch in in comp mode with "Mute Previous Takes" checked (that's the way to do it), the existing audio in the punch region is muted and moved down to the next "Take Lane." You can see the take lanes by opening them using the button in the left end of the timeline. See here for details on this. I don't work this way myself, so I'm rusty, but if, after you've done a punch, you then want to hear your earlier take, you can open the take lanes (at first there will be just the top track and one lane), click on your punched-in audio and (as @Base 57 says above) press "K" on your keyboard to unmute it and, I believe, promote it up to the top track. But for me, the point of comp mode and take lanes is to do a number of takes -- either complete or partial -- and when you are done, composite or comp a track using the best sections of your playing. I gather you want to hear the old take as soon as you've done a new take?

I hope this makes sense to you. I'm still not entirely sure what your end goal is here, so help me if I've got it wrong.

Yeah that makes sense. I've decided the best method for me going forward for doing simple punches on the fly as I record is to use the overwrite option. This is the most similar to what I'm used to in cubase. instead of layering the audio over top of the existing track and sliding it around (in cubase), in Cakewalk I have to open the track lanes to drag and line up the punches exactly where I want them... Which is fine, just a little different. Thanks again for all your help!

56 minutes ago, Base 57 said:

You just click on the muted clip and hit the K button

 

Thanks dude!

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23 minutes ago, eezye said:

Yeah that makes sense. I've decided the best method for me going forward for doing simple punches on the fly as I record is to use the overwrite option. This is the most similar to what I'm used to in cubase. instead of layering the audio over top of the existing track and sliding it around (in cubase), in Cakewalk I have to open the track lanes to drag and line up the punches exactly where I want them... Which is fine, just a little different. Thanks again for all your help!

I used tape recorders for 20 years before DAWs even existed, so I usually punch guitar parts in overwrite mode. It's the way I learned, and hey -- if I'm punching in, it's because I don't like the way I played it the first time. But you should think about comping -- maybe not for guitar, but for vocals it is a HUGE advantage to do it that way. Take a look at these videos here and here. I try to record a bunch of complete vocal takes, just one after another, and then make a comped vocal track using only the best phrases I can find in the take lanes. If you're making records, this is what your competition is doing, and in the end I think you'll find its not really that hard to do.

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I've started to use comping much more nowadays with guitar. I tend to record every other phrase in one take, then the other phrases in another.

I don't know if it's old age making my hands stiff, or lack of practice, or (most probably) both... but comping certainly helps.

Funny thing is, solo's are fine. It's just moving between certain chord shapes I struggle with  nowadays.

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3 hours ago, Larry Jones said:

 

I used tape recorders for 20 years before DAWs even existed, so I usually punch guitar parts in overwrite mode. It's the way I learned, and hey -- if I'm punching in, it's because I don't like the way I played it the first time. But you should think about comping -- maybe not for guitar, but for vocals it is a HUGE advantage to do it that way. Take a look at these videos here and here. I try to record a bunch of complete vocal takes, just one after another, and then make a comped vocal track using only the best phrases I can find in the take lanes. If you're making records, this is what your competition is doing, and in the end I think you'll find its not really that hard to do.

Yeah now that I know how to unmute the audio afterward, I will certainly give it some experimentation... I definitely see how it could be advantageous.

2 hours ago, msmcleod said:

I've started to use comping much more nowadays with guitar. I tend to record every other phrase in one take, then the other phrases in another.

I don't know if it's old age making my hands stiff, or lack of practice, or (most probably) both... but comping certainly helps.

Funny thing is, solo's are fine. It's just moving between certain chord shapes I struggle with  nowadays.

Yeah not having to click around as much while you have the guitar in your hands could be a lot better, definitely going to test this out

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