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RexRed

Looking for an audio interface?

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My gripe is the signal flow diagram and Behringer can go jump in the lake until they furnish me with one.

Until then I will advise any and all people within my sphere of influence to never buy their products. 

That is my gripe, and the fact that they have all of these other unsavory issues circling around their company only solidifies my dissatisfaction toward them.

As for Roland, my old Quad Capture (that sill works after 10 years and never got hot once) in the driver dialogue box under the help dropdown menu there is an "about" field that if you click on it up pops a signal flow diagram chart. The one I posted above.  

Neither do I need to go writing fruitless emails to Roland's tech support, protesting endlessly on the internet for a diagram nor do I need to search through my filing cabinet get out the manual and flip to the very last page to find it..

Roland was thoughtful enough to furnish me with one that I can study each time I go into the driver dialogue menu on my computer.

They genuinely care that their customers can use their product without hassle.

Edited by RexRed

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9 hours ago, RexRed said:

could someone please explain how these preamps are used?

I'll try to keep this brief.
Mic > Pre > Line input

Each of the "Pres" in my rack offer some form of "unique color" (for want of a better explanation)

Any of the mics I use could go straight into the RME pres and work just fine.
LDC, Ribbon, Dynamic; plenty of "clean" gain.
All "coloration" could be done "virtually" in CbB with VST's.

When I was using the L22, the "modeling" software was looking for "matched" pres, and the RME pres were perfect.

There is a block diagram in the RME manuals, for all models I think. (page 116 of the UCX II manual pdf)

HTH,

t

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On 9/17/2021 at 8:20 AM, RexRed said:

BTW, I have stopped using VoiceMeeter Potato altogether, I do use the virtual cables that come with it.

I prefer letting Windows Settings handle my "virtual" routing.

I send my Windows browser and gaming audio out of the Realtek to inputs on the Behringer streaming interface. That is what I call a "hardware" loop around.

Then my Behringer interface is not put into some odd loop mode that robs other functionality away from it.

I don't really know what is going on because I have no signal flow diagram.

So, keeping things as relegated and simple as possible is the best way to insure things run all the time without any latency and without fail.

Do you use window drivers with this? 

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6 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

Do you use window drivers with this? 

That is a good question Will, I assume Windows has drivers that are being used. In Cakewalk I use ASIO drivers.

But there is zero latency (and I mean zero) as if Windows is using some sort of direct sound.

In Cakewalk I can send any track or master out to its own output on the Behringer 1

and my Windows audio I send all of that out through the Realtek. That is the loopback, The integrated Realtek audio has no latency.

To do that I open my game and/or the chrome browser and/or Windows media player any source that makes sound in Windows (except Cakewalk which goes to the Behringer through main or track outputs.)

While a source is open i.e. in Chrome, my games and/or Media player etc... in the Window sound settings advanced sound settings an icon for that source appears there then, I am able to select a direct output for that source. This is where I select the Realtek integrated sound device.

Before I was using this method I was using HDMI out though my graphics card, then i would split the HDMI signal through a splitter box and then send that HDMI into a 4k capture card in my streaming computer and the other HDMI went to my computer monitor. I would use VoiceMeeter potato to route all the Windows sources to HDMI out. This method required VoiceMeeter Potato to pull off (that was the only method I could figure out how to use.)  There is also a Sony Alpha camera in this mix. Three video sources, HDMI Windows screen capture, Sony Alpha and Logitech Brio the Sony is captured through USB 4k Cam link and the Windows screen capture is captured through an Elgato 4k Capture card and the Logitech Brio is plugged directly into the streaming computer through USB.  

The problem with that method is I would often lose the HDMI audio signal when starting up my broadcast and have to crawl under the desk and unplug the HDMI splitter and re-plug it in and sometimes even that would not work to get audio to pipe into the capture card and then into OBS. Windows on my streaming computer did not always like to give me that audio feed in OBS. That was a pain.

Running the Windows/game/chrome browser audio out of the Realtek and into the Behringer 2 with direct audio cable lines solved that problem. I would run my gaming microphone into a phantom power box and then direct into the audio in on the Sony Alpha for gaming and into the audio interface for Cakewalk streams, that was a mess having to change and set up each time. At one point I was using two microphones and a desktop mixer, That just made things even more complicated. Crazy complicated...

And there is no latency issues at all between my game video that is fed to the capture card through the HDMI splitter and the audio that is looped out of the Realtek into the Behringer. They both arrive at OBS studio in the streaming computer in perfect sync every time.

What drivers Windows is using is a mystery to me.

I like to refer to them as direct kernel drivers but that is, I'm sure, not the correct name.

My microphone an another anomaly.

A huge anomaly...

How to do that?

Well, the dilemma was how do I use a microphone to both talk during the video gaming stream and also have that same microphone for use for tracking in Cakewalk?

And that microphone has to have absolutely zero latency so it is in sync with my Sony Alpha video stream.

So the audio lines up with the Alpha video and video is not out of sync with the Sony camera video feed.  

This was by far the hardest part to figure out. Arming a vocal track in Cakewalk during a broadcast presents a huge logistical hurdle. 

I plug my Audio Technica microphone into Behringer 1 because I need it in the workstation computer directly in Cakewalk that was apparent.

So I can track, then I take the direct out signal of the microphone out of Behringer 1 and sent it to Behringer 2 then there is absolutely no latency in the microphone.

Remember, Windows audio is not going into the Behringer 1 but through the Realtek.

Then I have my microphone signal and and the Cakewalk playback where I can pipe them out to separate outputs on the Behringer 1 they run out of Behringer 1 and into Behringer 2 with their own separate inputs. Then I have separate volume knobs on Behringer 2 to control these sources Mic and Cakewalk master.

When tracking during a broadcast I need to silence certain mic sources. But this allows me to do the broadcast with one microphone and not have to use two and have zero latency in most cases.  The mic always has a direct out to Behringer 2 and it can be use for gaming steams also. Always set up for immediate use.  The switch is after tracking, the vocal audio wave file in the track plays out of a different output. This is all still a new set up for me so half of the time I am not sure how it really is working but it does and not having a signal flow chart for the Behringer made this all exponentially harder to accomplish. This is why am am so floored with Behringer. But it works for now and I am not sure why or how. But everything is in sync and I only flip a few switches and I am ready to broadcast. After pushing numerous buttons wildly and turning knobs this way and that and plugging stuff arbitrarily into the box it suddenly worked without knowing how the signaled was really flowing. There is probably a way to do all of this without using the Realtek but that is a secret that Behringer is unwilling to part with. I can't wait to get this Behringer stuff out of the loop and work with a company that does really care about its customers.  

I have this all diagrammed out in Adobe illustrator in a signal flow chart I created. But I only share that with "partners" (just kidding). 😁

Edited by RexRed
typos
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Considering what I had to go through to get this all to work, had things been different, right now, I would be making an unboxing video of the two Behringer interfaces and extolling the virtues of these devices on my YouTube unboxing/review channel (even though they run hot as heck...). I still have no idea how these work... And I don't care to figure it all out at this point.

Instead, I will be making a "steer clear of Behringer" video. Let them try and deny they did not refuse to send a signal flow diagram, I have it documented in emails that i can read in a video. I will keep these interfaces for now at a loss to myself and replace them with RME devices instead ASAP. And the fact that if you Google this device there is no diagram for it in Google images anywhere on the net solidifies the intent that this is their policy. 

Maybe I will unload them on Ebay for more than half of what I paid for them. The return window is still open, I could send them back to Amazon. It is not worth packing them up and finding all of stuff that came with them. And, I would only be hurting a third party seller. That is not my style, if i can help it.

Behringer, "never again" is my current motto and the mantra I may use in my review of this product, nice click bait for a review title huh? When I get around to making a review video...

Personally, I have more important things to do right now.

I hope they read this and realize they lost a fan of their stuff. I have zero trust in their company and products now.

If Behringer ever wants to make things up to me they need to not just send me an image of their signal flow diagram but also post it online so their "customers" (that they love so much) can also use it to understand how this thing works.

Edited by RexRed
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53 minutes ago, RexRed said:

Considering what I had to go through to get this all to work.

Yeah, true. I can tell you went through a lot of sleepless nights because of this. 

The reason why i'm asking if you're using windows drivers - I wanted to hear/know which drivers the Behringer1820 use. I see it has its own drivers. I'm interested and curious to that. 

Can you share some light one that. I too am busy shopping for new gear. At the moment im looking at the Scarlett 18i20 and the Presonus 1824C. I'm also familiar with the Track 8 from M-Audio and Tascam US 16×08 

Edited by Will_Kaydo

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13 hours ago, RexRed said:

Behringer sued by Roland/Boss
March 1, 2005

Leading electronic musical instrument and equipment manufacturer Roland Corporation has sued Behringer International GmbH and its subsidiaries to enforce Rolands trade dress, trademark, and other intellectual property rights in and to the famous guitar effects pedals manufactured, distributed and sold by Rolands division, BOSS, as well as other Roland products.

Nice way to cherry-pick your data. You of course choose to ignore all the suits where Behringer won.

I don't hear any crying from you about all the other companies who are blatantly copying other people's gear.

I also don't see you mentioning the settlement:

“We are satisfied that Behringer’s current line of guitar pedals is now sufficiently different from the trade dress of the famous Boss brand of pedals,” stated Dennis Houlihan, president of Roland Corporation U. S. “We have great respect for Roland and are pleased that our new line of guitar pedals is enjoying great success in the market,” commented Michael Deeb, CEO of Behringer.

https://www.mixonline.com/technology/behringer-and-roland-settle-lawsuit-381972

13 hours ago, RexRed said:

Behringer tried to sue Dave Smith Instruments and 20 forum users for libel


The budget gear company filed a suit last year for what it claimed were “false, defamatory, and libelous” statements made on the Gearslutz forum.

Now what you're doing is called "moving the goalposts."

"Moving the goalposts is an informal logical fallacy in which previously agreed-upon standards for deciding an argument are arbitrarily changed once they have been met. Usually the "losing" side in an argument deploys this gambit in a desperate bid to save face. If the goalposts are moved far enough, then the standards can eventually evolve[1] into something that cannot be met no matter what (or anything will meet said standard - if the losing side is trying to meet the standard using this tactic). Usually such a tactic is spotted quickly. Often, moving the goalposts is an exercise in slothful induction.  The fallacy is an ad hoc fallacy and an informal fallacy." 

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts

Now, while I agree that some of Behringer's other actions are rather distasteful, that has nothing to do with any alleged theft.

13 hours ago, RexRed said:

I do not give a Rattus norvegicus' gluteus maximus  if you have thing for Berhinger also. It is no epidermis off my pecans.... 

What I have a thing for is truth and accuracy....

 

13 hours ago, RexRed said:

My gripe is the signal flow diagram and Behringer can go jump in the lake until they furnish me with one.

Until then I will advise any and all people within my sphere of influence to never buy their products. 

So what this really looks like to me is a crybaby toddler fit about not getting your way.

13 hours ago, RexRed said:

Here are companies who innovate and make their "own" synths...

REAL synth enthusiasts...

Along with a bit of cork-sniffing snobbery.

I also find it quite entertaining, not to mention ironic, that you admit to having stolen intellectual property yourself, yet here you are trying to castigate Behringer....

Hypocrisy, anyone?

 

All this because you went all monkey brain over my simple comment "Reverse engineering 40 year old designs no longer being manufactured and no longer covered by patents is not really "stealing."

I'm done with this Monkey Dance.

Edited by bdickens
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