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Mike Z

Track view starting at Measure 0, not 1?

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I've been thinking about this for awhile now, haven't seen it on any DAW yet. I would like my projects to start at measure 0 instead of the usual measure 1. The reason is that I always like to have a bit of silence between hitting the Record button and starting to play. Sometimes there's a grace note or pickup note before the bar, other times it's just an eager note that hits a little early. I don't like cleaning those  up because it can add to the organic feel of songs. If all notes hit at exactly the same time it can sound too mechanical imho.

Normally, I wait until measure 2 to start recording. That means all the measures in the song are advanced by 1 (eg. a 16 bar phrase starts at measure 2 and ends at bar 17).  

I can't imagine this would be difficult to implement; it probably should be an "opt-in" feature since many people will want to stick with the way it's always been. Just a check box in Preferences to start the Time Ruler at Measure 0 instead of 1.

I realize this is a minor issue, I could live without it (have for a long time now) but it would help me stay organized a bit.

 

Measure 0.jpg

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Use the time offset feature, pre count metronome feature, or change the time display to SMPTE. 

It is important to note that when sequencing songs for an album to be sent off to a mastering engineer, the songs should always always start by or after the beat 2 mark in the project.  Once the song is ready for mixdown, you still keep that dead space in the beginning so that no audio gets accidentally clipped off from importing and exporting to various applications.  Whoever is in charge of sequencing a groups album (use to be its very own job and position in studios) will be the one to determine how many ms are allowed on the start and end of each song.

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11 hours ago, Mike Z said:

I've been thinking about this for awhile now, haven't seen it on any DAW yet. I would like my projects to start at measure 0 instead of the usual measure 1. The reason is that I always like to have a bit of silence between hitting the Record button and starting to play. Sometimes there's a grace note or pickup note before the bar, other times it's just an eager note that hits a little early. I don't like cleaning those  up because it can add to the organic feel of songs. If all notes hit at exactly the same time it can sound too mechanical imho.

Normally, I wait until measure 2 to start recording. That means all the measures in the song are advanced by 1 (eg. a 16 bar phrase starts at measure 2 and ends at bar 17).  

I can't imagine this would be difficult to implement; it probably should be an "opt-in" feature since many people will want to stick with the way it's always been. Just a check box in Preferences to start the Time Ruler at Measure 0 instead of 1.

I realize this is a minor issue, I could live without it (have for a long time now) but it would help me stay organized a bit.

 

Measure 0.jpg

What you want to do then - is to change your metronome count-in to 1 measure or 4 - beats in the drop down menu seen below. This will give you a pause of 1 measure (Bar) count before the actual recording starts. 

1862470625_1Count-in.thumb.jpg.1942de392467e0c1a3c3701a38bdb238.jpg

It is a global tradition in music and video for the timeline to start at 1. This has been the law since the beginning of music. 

Reason for this is: Every count starts at 1 and return back to 1 count. Whether that's in triplets or dotted - and its just mathematical correct for 4 measures (Bars) to end at the 4th measure before you get the 5th measure (Bar.) This rule cant be changed as it agrees with "time" in general. 

Meaning: The 1 you see in the timeline  (irrespective of what clock method or counts you use) those beats in between a measure - counts down the seconds. Again: Time in general. Thats why a 1/2 note is 1 second and a whole note count/measure/bar is 2 seconds long. 

It's the principle and law of time itself to have it immediately start at 1. 

I totally get what you're saying and asking - I get it and understand it. That's why a count-down | or | count-in, are so important in music applications on recording.

Who knows maybe it is possible to make a visual aspect of it - like a blank count-in area on the time ruler. I wouldn't know. 

Cheers ✌

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7 hours ago, Clovis Ramsay said:

Once the song is ready for mixdown, you still keep that dead space in the beginning so that no audio gets accidentally clipped off 

We just drag out/in silent spaces and add in fades to prevent clipping. 2112313903_Screenshot2021-06-17160823.thumb.png.6a7864b3e224924482d4487a656f6c6a.png

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10 hours ago, Clovis Ramsay said:

Use the time offset feature, pre count metronome feature, or change the time display to SMPTE. 

I don't want a count-in before recording, I want recording to start before playing so I get the dead air space before measure 1.

10 hours ago, Clovis Ramsay said:

It is important to note that when sequencing songs for an album to be sent off to a mastering engineer, the songs should always always start by or after the beat 2 mark in the project.  Once the song is ready for mixdown, you still keep that dead space in the beginning so that no audio gets accidentally clipped off from importing and exporting to various applications.  Whoever is in charge of sequencing a groups album (use to be its very own job and position in studios) will be the one to determine how many ms are allowed on the start and end of each song.

This is what I've already been doing, beginning at measure 2.  What I'm suggesting is that the song should start at measure 1, with a bit of room for grace note/pickup notes before that.

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2 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

What you want to do then - is to change your metronome count-in to 1 measure or 4 - beats in the drop down menu seen below. This will give you a pause of 1 measure (Bar) count before the actual recording starts. 

Thanks, but I'm not looking for a  count-in before the recording starts, I'm looking for a count-in before the playing starts, while recording, so that early notes get recorded.

2 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

It is a global tradition in music and video for the timeline to start at 1. This has been the law since the beginning of music. 

Reason for this is: Every count starts at 1 and return back to 1 count. Whether that's in triplets or dotted - and its just mathematical correct for 4 measures (Bars) to end at the 4th measure before you get the 5th measure (Bar.) This rule cant be changed as it agrees with "time" in general. 

Exactly. A musical score starts at measure 1, not measure 2.  Yet every DAW forces songs to start at measure 2 or later to allow early notes to be recorded.

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Mike Z said:

Exactly. A musical score starts at measure 1, not measure 2.  Yet every DAW forces songs to start at measure 2 or later to allow early notes to be recorded.

Yes. But it's time based - as in reality, "real-life." Meaning 0 is 1 | and | 1 is 0  - so this tells you that between the "0" and 1 is a negative count. It's the law of time. We don't start to count at "0" we start by 1. Your house clock starts at 1:00 not at 12:00 because 12 ends at the beginning of 1:00 O'Clock (exactly like your metronome counts.) 

So you see why "0" can't be added to the score as this will add a negative clock count? That is why they teach you this in music schools (Not that i've been to one.)

So all this comes down to a count-in at the end of the day. It is what you're basically asking, but not in so many words. 

FWIW: The metronome count-in does not only applies for recording it's playback. 

That's why your loop points keep your time and song length in order. 

And like I said: I totally understand what your asking. But do you see the complications?

Yes, we all want a way to have that silent free count to make up for starting times for rendering purposes, but this why it cant be done. That's why the only way is to draw it in yourself once production is finished. 

Isn't there an easier way with the arranger? 

 

Edited by Will_Kaydo

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10 minutes ago, Will_Kaydo said:

But do you see the complications that will come with that coding?

I know less than nothing about coding. But I can only assume that there is a technical limitation that prevents this because people have been asking for negative measures since Cakewalk was MIDI only. The Bakers have answered those requests with silence. So how can someone like me know if it's a technical limitation or something else? 

14 minutes ago, Will_Kaydo said:

But it's time based - as in reality, "real-life." Meaning 0 is 1 | and | 1 is 2  - so this tells you that between "0" and 1 is a negative count

When the Olympics start, watch any timed race. The clock starts at 0.00, not 1.00. Even the absolute time counter in Cakewalk starts at 00.00.00.00.

There are countless musical compositions that begin with a pickup measure. But none of that is the real point. I started recording with analog tape back in the 70's. Leaving a few seconds of blank leader tape was standard practice. It is the way I still work today. It is part of my "workflow" (I don't know why but that word really annoys me). The ability to place the measure 1 downbeat at any point in the timeline would make my work easier. Even better would be the ability to place new downbeats for multiple songs in the same project; just like a reel of tape. When I switched over to ADAT's, the BRC would display (and transmit) relative MIDI song position for any song in it's memory regardless of the playback position of the tape. I would like to have that ability in Cakewalk.

I support all FR's even if I don't think it would benefit me. We all work differently. But this one tops my list. When Meng first rescued us he asked people to send in their top five FR's. Negative measures was the only one I could think of.

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Base 57 said:

When the Olympics start, watch any timed race. The clock starts at 0.00, not 1.00. Even the absolute time counter in Cakewalk starts at 00.00.00.00.

 

As I've said before! Thats because "0" is 1 and "1" is "0"

a 24hr clock ends at 00:00 and starts at 1:00. Where the last count of 12 is at 00:59 "AKA" the start of "1."

The fact that you make an example of an Olympic clock is disappointing, because although it DISPLAY "00:00:00" the count starts at "1" 

That is why "0" represents the number "10" on the abacus. Because the count just starts back at 1 again - which then gives you "11." and every time as you go higher 21; 31 etc. 

I can go on all day with this to why it will never work. 

Unless you want to read the music score wrong. 

Edited by Will_Kaydo

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17 hours ago, Mike Z said:

I would like my projects to start at measure 0 instead of the usual measure 1.

I think the same way. It could be customizable. Also we should be able to have negative bars.

Cubase have that. But it's changing from the Project Setup. It should be simple as one command connected to the Now Time. 

I mean let's say your Now Time Indicator is at measure 4. You apply the command "Set Measure Beginning at Now Time" then measure 4 becomes 1, measure 3 becomes 0 , and measure 2 becomes -1. Just like that.

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From Wikipedia

"In the 24-hour time notation, the day begins at midnight, 00:00, and the last minute of the day begins at 23:59. Where convenient, the notation 24:00 may also be used to refer to midnight at the end of a given date[5] — that is, 24:00 of one day is the same time as 00:00 of the following day."

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Base 57 said:

From Wikipedia

"In the 24-hour time notation, the day begins at midnight, 00:00, and the last minute of the day begins at 23:59. Where convenient, the notation 24:00 may also be used to refer to midnight at the end of a given date[5] — that is, 24:00 of one day is the same time as 00:00 of the following day."

😂 I'm just gona laugh at that. 😂 

You're sending back information i'm giving you in answer here. 

LAST TIME: Zero is One | and | One is Zero and that's why the count starts at 1.

So i'm gonna say this "EXACTLY" a 24hr clock only starts at 01:00 

Here's the thing. We've all worked an 8hrs shift before right? But out of that 8hrs you get 1hrs lunch so basically you're working only 7hrs right? 

So from the start you go on lunch until the end of your lunch - thats "1" hour. not 0 hrs right? 

Now to come back to you "Wikipedia" research. There's 24hrs in a day correct! But the day ends on iets 23hr with the minutes and seconds making up for it. Now heres the question: what happens to that 24th hr?

Answer: That's that "LUNCH BREAK" in your 8hr shift. So now on the world clock that count starts at 01:00 again. 

So between 1am and 2am thats One Measure. Your 1 metronome measure counts (Or 4 beats count.)  So on the clock 00:00 to 01:00 will be your 24th Measure and whole note count. ("96 Beats on a 1/4 Note.) 

Edited by Will_Kaydo

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46 minutes ago, murat k. said:

I think the same way. It could be customizable. Also we should be able to have negative bars.

Cubase have that. But it's changing from the Project Setup. It should be simple as one command connected to the Now Time. 

I mean let's say your Now Time Indicator is at measure 4. You apply the command "Set Measure Beginning at Now Time" then measure 4 becomes 1, measure 3 becomes 0 , and measure 2 becomes -1. Just like that.

You're referring to "TIMECODE-STAMPS." 

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2 hours ago, murat k. said:

I think the same way. It could be customizable. Also we should be able to have negative bars.

Cubase have that. But it's changing from the Project Setup. It should be simple as one command connected to the Now Time. 

I mean let's say your Now Time Indicator is at measure 4. You apply the command "Set Measure Beginning at Now Time" then measure 4 becomes 1, measure 3 becomes 0 , and measure 2 becomes -1. Just like that.

Thanks, I didn't realize Cubase has that option. I just tried it and it works exactly like I expected: the time ruler now starts at 0 and proceeds from there. When I tried it on an existing project, it even asked if I wanted to shift the clips to the new start position, or leave them as they are.

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This is from Cubase 10.5 LE:

588941784_cubase1.jpg.832307049b78261a63a9d6866e1dcb45.jpg

This option is offered on a project-by-project basis. The default setting is 0, when I changed it to 1 as shown, the timer ruler ended up like this:

48580929_cubase2.jpg.9a73144e6c47579ba894d6c841b8d619.jpg

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13 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

You're referring to "TIMECODE-STAMPS."

It's the same as Set Timecode At Now command but for measures.

11 hours ago, Mike Z said:

Thanks

Glad to help. I hope we'll able to do it with the Cakewalk sometime soon. 😊

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12 hours ago, Mike Z said:

 

48580929_cubase2.jpg.9a73144e6c47579ba894d6c841b8d619.jpg

Its just a time ruler format change and not as what/how you describe in your original post. 

FWIW: Cakewalk has had this for years. 

1198550758_TimecodeStamp.thumb.png.43fc7d20933a1fde0b2ec59cbd83a697.png

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1 hour ago, murat k. said:

It's the same as Set Timecode At Now command but for measures.

It can be done in Cakewalk already. It's just displayed differently. 

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On 6/17/2021 at 1:59 AM, Mike Z said:

I've been thinking about this for awhile now, haven't seen it on any DAW yet. I would like my projects to start at measure 0 instead of the usual measure 1.

You can do it in Logic , Reaper..and I think my Cubase owning friends have mentioned they can do it too.

This would be useful because you can dump any initial midi data , keyswitches etc in bar zero and it also seems that Cakewalk struggles to play/render the first few milliseconds and it's more reliable if it has a little bit of a run up.  

 

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