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Maxim Vasilyev

The volume level in Aux Track is 3db higher.

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Hello.
I have a problem.
In projects in which Aux Track is involved, when you open a project, the sound in Aux Track (not in all Aux Track, but in some random one) plays louder by about 3 dB. This does not always happen, not predictable.
I don’t remember which version this problem started with, but in version 2020.04. and in earlier versions this problem is.
This happens when opening a saved project. In the new project this is not observed.
Has anyone watched this problem and how to solve it?

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3dB almost always indicates a stereo track switching to mono. When the two sides are combined it doubles the volume... 3dB.

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All tracks are stereo, there was no switching to mono. Just the overall sound gets louder in Aux Track.
A real example: the day before yesterday I put together a project, balanced the mix, sent drum tracks to Aux Track - everything sounds as it should. The next day I open the same project, but Aux Track sounds louder than it was a day ago.
This is not always the case, but several times already.

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On 5/8/2020 at 5:50 AM, Maxim Vasilyev said:

All tracks are stereo, there was no switching to mono. Just the overall sound gets louder in Aux Track.
A real example: the day before yesterday I put together a project, balanced the mix, sent drum tracks to Aux Track - everything sounds as it should. The next day I open the same project, but Aux Track sounds louder than it was a day ago.
This is not always the case, but several times already.

I have had the same problem on some occasions. For example, all the drum tracks have been sent to an auxiliary channel. Everything has worked well, but when I opened the project a day or two later, that auxiliary channel has 6 dB more. inconvenience in sending the project, but it is a problem is that it happens randomly, especially in old projects not in new projects, as soon as it happens I will send the project without problem.

Edited by FJ Lamela
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Oh wait... Another reason this happens to people is a bounce to track that isn't muted.

1. You have a mix that sounds great.

2. Bounce it to a track

3. Play all tracks (original plus new) without muting...

Result: mix volume+3db.

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15 hours ago, FJ Lamela said:

Everything has worked well, but when I opened the project a day or two later, that auxiliary channel has 6 dB more.

Yes, for me this also happens with drums often, but also with vocal tracks.
Perhaps some mono channel at the next opening becomes stereo in the channel properties?

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To me it only happens with Drums Vsti audio tracks that I have set to mono. But it only happens if I use some audio outputs in mono and some in stereo of the same drums Vsti (e.g. AD2). When I freeze them, sometimes there is an immediate level increase of +3dB, other times it stays correct and first when I reopen the project the level is increased. But I am sure that in some cases the +3dB level increase is not transparent.

Like that I have found out, that at times it makes a difference whether you export a frozen mono Vsti audio output or if you copy the frozen audio to a new mono track and export it from there. And this is surely not how one would expect!

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This has happened to me also, I have opened a project that I was working on last night, then all my Aux Tracks are clipping (it wasn't happening last night), I closed the project and re-opened and it was fine again, weird,

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4 hours ago, Maxim Vasilyev said:

Yes, for me this also happens with drums often, but also with vocal tracks.
Perhaps some mono channel at the next opening becomes stereo in the channel properties?

I've checked sometimes and mono channel are mono and sterero channel are stereo,nothing has changed.The problem is not this.And as i told,always with older projects.

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Hello again
Well, no one has this problem, which I write about in the first post?
To clarify, when I work with current projects, the problem of increasing the volume in the AUX Track for unknown reasons manifests itself, but not always, and not on the first or second day of the song creation.
So today I opened a project that I opened for the last time in the spring of 2021 and again ...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ULqsb_aRT0okxSDCTleO3xDUfMWzzW95/view?usp=sharing
This is a link to a video (albeit without sound), where you can see the difference in sound volume in the AUX Track using the indicators on the tracks. The AUX Track "Drums" is the AUX Track that was in the project, and the AUX Track "Drums NEW" is the one I created now. All of these AUX Tracks have the same parameters, all plugins are turned off, etc.
This happens at both 44 and 192 kHz without a difference. This does not depend on the audio card or version of Cakewalk and Windows 10. Most often it happens with CWB projects, but also with CWP, as in this example in the video.
Question to the developers: Have you identified such problems in yourself?
I could not specifically identify this problem in a new project, but it unexpectedly arises at the stage of creating a song.
It often happens like this: song creation (3-7 days), mixing - everything is ok. The next day (or a few days later), when something needs to be tweaked in the project (and there are already about 10 AUX tracks and in total there are about 50 tracks), then some, as a rule, one of the AUX Track will "shoot" + 6db!
I understand that you can create a new AUX Track and send the tracks from the "broken" AUX Track to a new one or lower the volume by 6db (which I do), but something tells me that it shouldn't be that way.

Edited by Maxim Vasilyev
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On 10/11/2021 at 9:14 AM, Maxim Vasilyev said:

Hello again
Well, no one has this problem, which I write about in the first post?
To clarify, when I work with current projects, the problem of increasing the volume in the AUX Track for unknown reasons manifests itself, but not always, and not on the first or second day of the song creation.
So today I opened a project that I opened for the last time in the spring of 2021 and again ...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ULqsb_aRT0okxSDCTleO3xDUfMWzzW95/view?usp=sharing
This is a link to a video (albeit without sound), where you can see the difference in sound volume in the AUX Track using the indicators on the tracks. The AUX Track "Drums" is the AUX Track that was in the project, and the AUX Track "Drums NEW" is the one I created now. All of these AUX Tracks have the same parameters, all plugins are turned off, etc.
This happens at both 44 and 192 kHz without a difference. This does not depend on the audio card or version of Cakewalk and Windows 10. Most often it happens with CWB projects, but also with CWP, as in this example in the video.
Question to the developers: Have you identified such problems in yourself?
I could not specifically identify this problem in a new project, but it unexpectedly arises at the stage of creating a song.
It often happens like this: song creation (3-7 days), mixing - everything is ok. The next day (or a few days later), when something needs to be tweaked in the project (and there are already about 10 AUX tracks and in total there are about 50 tracks), then some, as a rule, one of the AUX Track will "shoot" + 6db!
I understand that you can create a new AUX Track and send the tracks from the "broken" AUX Track to a new one or lower the volume by 6db (which I do), but something tells me that it shouldn't be that way.

i've experienced same issue sometimes,and i dont know why.

 

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@Maxim Vasilyev  It would be good to see the sends  from the source track to the patch points to make sure the first one didn't get doubled up.  I would also be curious what is shown if you arm the Drums Aux to show the input level vs. the output level and/or change the Drums New Aux to use the same patch point as the Drums Aux for input. This will tell you if the patch point itself is raising the level or something is happening in the track between the input and output. If it's actually a bug, any of those actions might conceivably reset something, making it difficult to diagnose, but if the behavior remains consistently wrong, you should send a copy of the project to the Bakers for analysis - preferably stripped down to just the tracks that show the problem with all unnecessary plugins removed.

Also, though it's probably not relevant in this case since both Aux tracks are getting input from the same source track, you should change the Input to your Kick Instrument track (and all other MIDI/Instrument tracks)  from 'Omni' to a specific channel of your keyboard/controller to avoid receiving unexpected MIDI input from other physical/virtual ports or channels.

Incidentally, regarding an earlier post about frozen tracks gaining 3dB, this is a long-standing issue with freezing tracks that have a mono input from a soft synth. I haven't checked it for a while, but I believe that problem still exists.

 

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Before writing here, I carefully reviewed all the settings of all tracks for duplication.
I myself started working in the 90s with Cakewalk 3, in which the Panic button was in the form of a face from the "Scream" painting 😱 - I understand what I am doing.🙂
The fact of the matter is that it is not easy to catch this problem, it rarely appears and, as a rule, at an unnecessary moment when you need to quickly fix something in an old project, and as a result, I am not sure now that when opening of the previous project, somewhere the AUX track setting was knocked down and you have to carefully review and listen for this.
Fundamentally, this problem is that when you have everything in your project configured as you need, and when you open it, say, after a month or more (sometimes the next day), the program itself "decides", to change something - it’s not should be.

Sometimes this is solved by reloading the project. There was such a case - I opened the CWB of an old project, and there was some kind of AUX track louder, without touching anything, saved it in CWP, closed the project, opened it - and all the rules. Sometimes it happens that way.
The next time, when I have this problem again, I can send a file with the project, because this project, which is on the video, I have already "fixed".
Maybe someone will try to open their old projects and see if everything is okay in these projects with AUX tracks?

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The only way for us to investigate if this is the case is to send us a zip of the full project with the audio that exhibits the issue.

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@Maxim Vasilyev thanks for sending the project that exhibited the problem. I was able to track down the cause and fix it for the next release.
The main issue was that the internal patchpoint bus associated with the aux track was somehow sending twice to the aux track. As a result the gain was boosted.
I'm not sure what led to the sends being duplicated but I've made the code that handles this more robust and it wont allow that to happen now. Also at load time it automatically gets fixed so that it routes only once to the aux.

Did these projects originate in an earlier release of SONAR by any chance?

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This is great news! I had a recent project that did exactly this, but then on the next open it worked correctly without the +6dB boost, and since that point nothing I did could make it reproduce the problem. 🙄 I was waiting to get another one in a broken state to send in but it looks like Maxim got in first. Great stuff. FYI, my project was entirely done fresh in CbB.

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Yes its hard to find since it depended on the order in which the sends from the patch point were created. The bug has been there since the creation of aux tracks so its good to get this fixed.

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Great news, Noel!

10 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

Did these projects originate in an earlier release of SONAR by any chance?

Yes, this problem has manifested itself since the version in which the AUXs appeared.

 

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