Hugh Mann

2 hours ago, Craig N said:

then a similarly radical shift from MacOS to OS X. 

 

well,   they did include  Rosetta 2.   Pretty much all my software worked right out of the gate.  I think they did about as awesome  a job with the transition as could be done.  The fact that, via Rosetta, you can use software written for x86 on an M1 chip is pretty cool.  

1 hour ago, husker said:

Apple is cheaper?   On what planet is this? 

when you spec out for equal items and the quality of the components,  materials, design, etc..,  its pretty even.  I'd say cheaper in time saved.  

they need to figure out the wattage/heat issue. 

4 minutes ago, antler said:

Here's another one - I hope these are really good quality wheels...

its pricey,  but they are "Pro" wheels.  And you do get free shipping.  :D.  Seriously,  only an idiot or someone doing some kind slightly shady budget/ tax thing would buy that. that's more than twice the price to get new tires on my car.   

As far as the value of a Mac computer, this comes up all the time.  As old as time it seems.  But if you want a fair comparison ( and don't have an agenda like you are broke or are tryout to sell your own computers, lol),  match each of the components.  for example,  $600 for an intel cpu.  $$300-400 for the mobo.  $200-$300 for Ram.  SSD (compatible to what Mac uses)...and so on.  when you add it all up,  its really not that much more expensive.  

A bit of actual data:

https://nanoreview.net/en/cpu-compare/intel-core-i9-12900k-vs-apple-m1-max
 

I used to think they were expensive and underpowered. Avoided them for decades  But after using apple products daily for the last 6 years, I can say that if you can afford it, they are worth it.  It’s a high quality item.  The way the touch pad feels.  The color accuracy of the screen.  How nice it is to look at the screen for hours, The design elements. The components.  Materials.  All working seamlessly with the software.  After dealing with windows and pc bs for over 25 years, it’s really a nice to just get to work.  And I know, someone usually chimes in with “but a properly configured pc..blah blah blah”.  But it doesn’t compare. The quality is there.  I feel they are worth it.  In other words, there is more to  it’s value than straight price comparisons. It’s like a mim fender vs mia.  

2 minutes ago, Zo said:

No second ssd and lack of ports makkes it easy to skip'....

Yeah, there are compromises. With hd space, Its either get totally ripped off by Apple for a larger internal ssd  , or go with portable hd .  My solution to the ssd issue is to just connect a portable drive.  I have three. One for kompkete, bfd, etc.  one for time machine, and another for archives. And I have an adapter for my  usbA stuff. Not perfect, but not a deal breaker for me. Especially considering  the other massive benefits.

2 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

No matter how great they are I don't want to get trapped in Apple's Echo system.  I like tinkering with PC hardware.  I've been doing it for 20 years.

Ironically, I got into macs because I was tired of tinkering with PCs for the last 25 years,. 😁 and I gotta say, I do like their ecosystem.  I got the phone,  watch , earbuds, and iPad.  The hardware with the software  works great together.  Much better than any windows pc I’ve had (bought/built quite a few). 

7 hours ago, Zo said:

I don't have time right now to write a whole thing about that but to put it simple as possible .

system latency is very dangerous because it doesn't depends on CPU speed , this is basically the time a request ,to cpu access for calculation, waits until the acess is effectif .

This is why on my test for exemple i played 600 tracks on my HP 8560 W while my friend fully loaded MAc pro couldn't while more powerfull ....

This impact the realtime processus capability . Off line rendering is not an issue , that'sw hy all those video randering stuff are useless most of the time  

Anyway , what could cause those hight latency :

1) Bad intergration : i had two computers , a sony vgn bx 97 and an aacer  , same component , sony latency was 10 us !! acer was 800 us ... you know what i mean

2) Process (wifi refershing , ambiant light cencor ,anything that neeed random access to cpu in a constant way)

3) The OS itself (tests have made back then that showed that for exemple on the same MAC pro , same soundcard , same software , same plugins , the latency was 10 times bigger on osx than windows insatlled on it !:!! )

anyway if i say to you ferrari is better than bmw , doesn't mean bmw is crap ..

Issues with MBP other the past : 

One of the biggest issue with macbooks was heat management (like all laptops in fact pc and macs)

Tehnology have evolved , but physics is physics

Heat formulas is important to undertsand what happened and what will happen 

P = F xV2 x E

P = Heat

F = Frequency of a cpu 

V°2 : is voltage X voltage

E = epsilon , a vaiabels of adjustement (don 't pay attention to that for now) 

So the challenge is keep P low !!!!!!!!

So if you want to gain power : 

1) you can increase speed , but heat will go up : solution  creation of turbo boost , use speed when needed 

2) more power can be obatined by more cores , but more cores , more power (volatge !!) : solution created : hyperthreading , more "logicol" core while less real physical cores ...

 

Real world scenario (tested i done on my macbook pro back then) 

stress test : wprime witch is the one that comes closer to real daw usage 

wprime 1024 is a heavy series of long calculation , objectif , seeing how the computer performance in long period of stress ( 10 min) 

beginnginof test  : Cpu speed = X (high)  heat = 80 degres

quarter of test  : CPU speed = X (still high) heat 99 degres / Fans maxed out !!

Middle of test : CPU speed =X - 30 % heat 90 degres fans maxed out 

Everything possible only if the power brick on , adn battery fully charged since 90  watt power supply wasn't enougth 

 

Real scneraio for a producer ....

I bengin a session : all good

I stack plugins and plugins , vents start and heat jump , 

I keep staking plugins , heat to hight , cpu downclock , crackles start to happen suddently because you went from a Ferrari to a toyata cpu wise lol 

 

Don't know if i'm clear , but this could be a good discussion for a video live guyz  

Anyway , M1 seems to solved this very problem that made those macs a joke for serious heavy users  , all good for regulkar people  ....

Ahh thanks for explaining.  I did know about the latency you are talking about.  I somehow misunderstood you and thought you were talking about some sort of latency in OS X.  To me, the best thing about the M1 series is that you can run full, heavy duty projects without the throttling, heat, and fan noise.  It seems like, as you point out, a lot of your complaints with macs have been solved now.  You should test one out, 

4 minutes ago, Zo said:

I don't understand your question ? what do you want to know ? i can go super technical or just regular ... i'm no sarcastic fo real ..

 

Go as deep as you want to type, lol.  I’m all for learning.   I guess I’m  curious about the system latency you mentioned. Never heard of that before.  Im also curious about, if I understand,  why you feel macs are of poor quality.  My impression is that they are very  high quality. Especially with the M1 chip.  IAnd the graph you posted. It doesn’t give much useful info because we don’t know what test that is.  Maybe cinebench? A proper test, for us, would be how many tracks/plug ins at what latency. Things that we care about.  Like I said, I’m sure someone ran some tests already. Or will soon enough.  Maybe you can do these tests? :)

6 minutes ago, Zo said:

i'm saying  the only benefit other previius APPLE stuff is the heat management , of course perf is beter , but MAcs are all other my garage because dead of bad heat management , porr perf under heavy load due to throtlling ect ....

A system stable in heat dissaption willl perform better and longer  that's what i meant .... i'm talking old macs versus new macs ....i see a clear improvement in that area as well as graphical ones (they were limited , again becuase of the heat managemnt versus the poor design of the macbook .....and their crazy temperature .

The beauty of the M1 is that they can keep their goal : find design , near passive cooling and maintain high perfs !!

People grabbing an Apple air M& thinking it will outperfome equivalents in Pc's is a pure non educated guess ...

People grabbing an Apple AIR M1 thinking it will outperform previous macs : bingo , they did a great job .

I'm not saying people will cool on M1 , i'm sating if some real guyz would do a serious test on sessions , one on let's say a fully loaded Lenovo X1 xtreme and one on this M1 , they will stop saying bullshit online like i see everywhere , from this guyz bashing UAD keeping saying M1 , M1 ,M1 ....i'm sot tired of this non eductaed people that gives their thougth , because they can ...consequences ? who cares ....

Thanks for explaining.  I think I understand what you mean. But how do you know it’s bullshit? In other words, can you share what you know in this regard? Cause, like I said,  first time I’m seeing that sentiment and I’ve read a lot of reviews on this all over.  That’s why I ask if you have tested it.  And I’m sure there will be, if not already, a test that puts the best intel/ Amd vs M1s.  I’d be curious on those results  too.  But really just for academic purposes, as any M1 or modern windows pc will do anything we could want, musically. 

33 minutes ago, Zo said:

testing old mac versus new mac is useless ....

Real test would be M1 versus top mobile cpu  on windows , and see how cold people will start to become ...when os System latency  will also enter the equation 

The only real benefice imho is the heat management witch is exellent on new ones ...

If one has an old Mac or pc, they may want to see if the performance difference is worth it. So comparisons can be helpful.  Have you tested any of the M1 chips personally? I ask because this is the first time I see anyone say the “only” benefit is  heat management, which is indeed stellar and probably the best there currently is (in that regard).  That’s no small thing, as, of course, it allows the cpu to run without throttling and uses very little power.  Also,  what do you mean by system latency? OS X? First time I hear that too.  I’m also not sure on your prediction that people will cool to the M1. Seems like everyone is getting one of these. And why not? You can pick up an M1 air for under a grand. Or the original M1 pro for not much more.  Just curious about your views. Thanks.

It is impressive.  I have the 16 inch M1 pro.  I haven’t bothered running the absurd tests just to see it’s limits.  But I am playing  bfd3 with my edrums at 1ms latency! That’s with a UAD arrow at 96k, Uad console bypassed.   In fact,  I just leave everything at 96k and 32.  Apple done good. 

I had issues with BFD 3 at first,  but they seem ok now.  I'm on a 16inch  M1pro and its running great (1ms latency!I play it with e drums) under Rossetta2.  The issues I had were with authorizing.  I called them (they have an 800 number, and people that answer) and  they sorted me out.  For me,  its the best $50 I ever spent!  got that price because of the cross grade they are offering for BFD eco owners (paid $20 for that). And I even got some extra sound packs thrown in for free.  

Just call musicians friend or chat.  They will give you the 15% off.  I’ve gotten it every time.  If one agent gives you a hard time, try another one,  but I’ve always gotten a  15% discount.  And, join their rewards program.  You get points you can use to further discount your purchase.  They are the best deal around right now.  

3 hours ago, valhill said:

Hi, in this test (2nd one with 114 tracks, did you use UAD Arrow or again only internal Mac audio? And also, as I understand UA products are not supported on Apple Silicon Macs yet...Is everything fine with your Arrow? do you recommend it? Thanks!

This test was with the internal Mac audio.

 As far UAD,  most everything works fine under Rosetta.  The only issue I ran into was Dream Verb crashes logic. But UAD is aware of this and states on their website that dream verb,  plus I think 2 or three other plug ins,  crash on an M1.  Otherwise,  its working great.

The Arrow is awesome.  but its been replaced by the Apollo solo. Its exactly the  same as the Arrow,  but costs $300 more than what I paid for the Arrow. I blame Clinton, lol.  I love how portable it is,  runs off of just the t3 power.  So no need for a power supply.  The only thing is...it can't run too many plug ins. it can run a lot of some plug ins,  but only like two of others.  You can always freeze tracks to free up resources,  but that's not ideal.  

I will say,  and I wasn't convinced till I tired it myself,  that  once you get into the UAD world,  you are hooked.  I love their plug ins. They have dramatically raised the quality of my mixes.  More than most  of the other plug ins I have (waves,  plug in alliance, izatope,  etc.).  

I ended up returning the Air and went for the cheapest M1 Mac mini.  I realized I do most of my work at home on a desk anyway.  So with all the money I saved, I bought a 1tb Samsung T7 ssd, and a UAD octo satellite to use with my Arrow.  Combined with the Apple m1, I'm a happy camper over here.  

One last test.  This is on an 8gb, 512 M1 machine.    UAD Arrow set to 96khz, 32 buffer. Performance should really be the same for all the different M1 versions with the same specs. (mini, Air, Pro, iMac). For this test,  I loaded 20 instances of Kontakt.  Each with a unique library.  I then loaded 10 VST instruments.  I then copied the ten VST instruments 5 times.  For a total of 70 tracks.  20 Kontakt.  50 VST instruments.  I looped an 8 bar pattern with 8 notes played as a sustained chords and 8 notes played staccato.  Everything played back perfectly.  No glitches,  no drop outs.  The entire project loaded up in 33 seconds.  This was all running off the battery.  

The Kontakt libraries used where:

Session Strings

Kontakt Factory Grand

India Sitar

India Ensemble

India Bansuri

Butch Vig Drums

VLS Strings

Noire Pure

Noire Felt

Strummed Acoustic 2 6string

Strummed Acoustic 2 12 string

Cloud Supply

Analog Dreams 1

Analog Dreams 2

Ethereal Earth1

Ethereal Earth2

Hybrid Keys 1

Hybrid Keys 2

OTS Evolution

OTW Strawberry 

The VST instruments used are:

5 instances of Diva (set to Devine mode and multicore)

5 of DS Thorn

5 of Hive

5 of Knif Audio Knifornium

5 of Spire 1.5

5 of SynthMaster 2.9

5 of SynthMaster One

5 of NI Super 8

5 of NI FM8

5 of BX Oberhousen

I took screenshots of the RAM usage,  as well as the CPU usage.  The CPU had plenty to spare. I could have probably doubled everything I had going.  And keep in mind this is all at 96khz and a 32 sample buffer.  And off of the battery.   As you can see,  an 8gb M1 machine can do much more than just surf the web and run office programs, lol. 

50 minutes ago, Doug Rintoul said:

Is the M1MacBookAir's SSD replaceable?

 Not by (most) users.  It’s one one of the sucky things about Apple.  And actually not just Apple, as many companies are moving to the non user repair model.  Right to repair is a movement. You’d have to take it to Apple or an Apple technician. If under warranty, it will be free.  If not,  it could be pricey to take it to the Apple store.  An independent tech would be cheaper than Apple.   This article has some general prices. Apple store prices would be much higher.   https://www.thumbtack.com/p/apple-repair-costs     Apple does offer AppleCare for $200.  That gives you three years of warranty, so anything breaks (that isn’t your fault) it will be free to repair/replace.  

13 hours ago, fret_man said:

Are there SSD monitors to warn when sectors start failing or end-of-life is eminent?

Macs have a utility called S.M.A.R.T., bUt it’s not that detailed.  There are other apps, though not from Apple.  

15 hours ago, msmcleod said:

I suspect the actual size of the SSD is larger than is available to the OS.  Most SSD manufacturers recommend you leave 10% or so of the SSD unformatted so it can re-allocate blocks from there if any blocks from the main partitions fail.   

So even if blocks do start failing after 7 or 8 months, there's probably enough spare good blocks to keep it going until around the time Apple decides your Mac is too old to run their latest OSX offering.

Interesting theory.  You may be right about that.  There is 494gb available out of the advertised 512gb.  Will there be a future ssd-gate?  We’ll see in time I guess.    

52 minutes ago, Jim Roseberry said:

 

If the onboard SSD has the same specs as the Samsung 980, it could potentially fail after ~220 days.

 

 

 

Potentially fail in 7 months?!  Well, let hope you are wrong on that one.  I'm hoping for at least 5 years.  I know Apple has been accused of planned obsolescence, but I would have to have faith that Apple realizes that ssds failing after 7 or so months would be catastrophic for them. I guess only time will tell,  but 7 or so months seems extremely  unlikely.   M1 Macs have been out around 7-8 months, so we would start seeing reports already.  At least Macs make it ez to back up and restore with their Time Machine program.  

Reminds me of the  old Henny Youngman joke.  Doctor gave a man 6 months to live.  The man couldn't pay his bill, so he gave another  him another 6 months.  

18 minutes ago, Jim Roseberry said:

Modern SSDs often have 1.5 million hours MTBF (or better).

It's the number of writes that people are worried about... as those are finite. 

Yes,  the writes is the concern.  Based on your expertise,  how long would you estimate an ssd on an Apple M1 could last? Do you consider the constant writing to be an issue to be worried about? 

1 hour ago, Fleer said:

I won’t run anything under Rosetta on my M1 as it uses memory swaps more often. 

Are you concerned for the longevity of the ssd?  How much more swaps does Rosetta 2 use?  Enough to be a significant difference?  Ive seen various articles and videos that conclude the constant writing to the ssd won't really be an issue.  Of course,  nobody has had an m1 for more than 7-8 months.  So we really won't know for sure for some time.  But based on longevity tests of similar ssds as what apple uses,  some have concluded that it could be 10 years or more before the ssd fails.  Im personally not worried about that.  I'll probably be on on another laptop long before the ssd fais on my current one.  

44 minutes ago, Doug Rintoul said:

Loading times are completely irrelevant to whether it is an M1 or Intel or AMD. It is an indication of the speed of the SSD. SSD speeds have come a long way since 2016 and even since 2018.

The difference in loading times is so much, that I don't think its due to the speed difference  of the ssds.  Maybe to some extent.  According to the article below,  it seems the reason that some x86 programs run better under Rosetta is more due to the efficiency of the M1 chip vs Intel, than Rosetta itself.  So my prior comment attributing the performance to Rosetta is incorrect .  A more accurate statement would be that  Ableton on an M1  runs better  than on intel (and maybe AMD.  I haven't tested that).  In either case,  it is quite remarkable that music production software written for x86 can be emulated on an M1 under rosetta and perform so well.  Here is a quote from the article and link to it.  

"Some software can run faster on Rosetta 2 than on your old Intel-based Mac or PC. 

However, this is more because of how well Apple Silicon is built than any special trick Rosetta 2 uses".  

https://dev.to/thatguysam/common-questions-about-apple-silicon-does-it-arm-2lge