Jim Roseberry
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Posts posted by Jim Roseberry
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USB audio interfaces with lowest round-trip latency are RME and MOTU (both sub 4ms).
By comparison:
The Apollo Thunderbolt series yields ~3.7ms total round-trip latency.
Presonus Quantum yields ~1ms total round-trip latency.
Note:
Many audio interfaces don't allow selecting ASIO buffer size smaller than 64-samples when using higher sample-rates.
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Blades, it'll get rid of the "quacky/smacky" piezo sound.
Had an Alex Lifeson Les Paul with piezo... and running that thru an acoustic body resonance IR sounded *far* better than it should.
It was close enough to be useful for recording (albeit not a substitute for a great acoustic mic'd extremely well).
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Steev,
Beating a dead horse here, but with the Pro version of Win10, you can shut down (disable) all automatic updates.
Once configured, Win10 won't download any updates.
If you've got the Home version of Win10, automatic updates can't be fully disabled.
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Threadripper is great for heavily multi-threaded applications (video rendering in particular).
What's not so great about Threadripper is the lower clock-speed.
Not all processes in a DAW application can be multi-threaded, this is why highest clock-speed is still the most critical CPU spec.
Right now, the Nvidia RTX video cards (2060, 2070, 2080, 2080ti) are causing high DPC Latency.
That's not the case with Vega-64 (no DPC Latency issues). Speed wise, Vega-64 is comparable to a GTX-1080ti.
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6 hours ago, Steev said:
I do believe and sincerely wish that we can be friends.
Steev, we can absolutely be friends.
I think it's great that Bandlab bought Cakewalk!
I've been a Cakewalk user since the CompuServ forums. 😉
Excited to see what the future brings... especially this being NAMM weekend.
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Mr Roseberry is my dad! 😉
Call me Jim
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48 minutes ago, azslow3 said:
But is such examples I think it is important to mention was it with unusual amplification or not. Was you playing already mastered track and at the very end could hear the difference in reverb, or was it just reverb sound and the signal was amplified +12 dB or more. Because with sufficient amplification it is possible to hear the difference of 24bit dithering on notebook speaker. I had to amplify more then 60dB + max all other volumes to achieve that, so it make no sense but possible 🙃
Yes, the reverb decay was amplified to make it more obvious, but not by 60dB.
At this point, I'm not often rendering to 16Bit audio.
Years ago, after hearing the nasty sounding 16Bit reverb decay, I compared different forms of dither (UV22HR, Waves IDR, Pow-R1, Pow-R2, and Pow-R3).
This was amplified to make the differences more obvious.
Waves IDR was the quietest dither.
For whatever reason, Pow-R algorithms 2 and 3 (using noise-shaped dither) kind of "irritated" my ears.
Pow-R1 and UV-22HR produced to my ears the best sounding results.
I'd give a slight nod to Pow-R1
I try to use Pow-R1 any time I'm reducing bit-depth.
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10 minutes ago, Chris Jones said:
What does aliasing sound like? Is it phasey? How does one know if it's happening?
If you've ever played a synth with distortion on the sound... and played in the higher registers, you've most likely heard aliasing.
It's a very digital/grainy/phasey type sound... that doesn't sound like part of the rest of the audio.
You can run a low-pass filter to reduce/eliminate aliasing, but that may impact the desired sound.
On a guitar cab, there's not a whole lot above ~7.5kHz, so it's easier to filter out than on something that has more high-frequency content (like a saw-tooth synth).
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I've owned/used all the top modelers.
You can get good/great sounds out of all of them.
HeadRush is really easy to use.
No matter which one, I always run a high-pass filter prior to the Amp Block.
This really helps tighten up the bottom end (clean/clear not flabby).
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You can also use an acoustic body resonance IR to simulate an acoustic (from magnetic pickups) for live use.
Can be done with Axe-FX, Helix, HeadRush, etc.
It's not going to replace a great mic'd acoustic, but for live playing... it sounds close enough.
Being able to switch immediately from acoustic to a distorted/crunch is super convenient.
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Steev, you're great at comedy.
I'm going to leave it at that.
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39 minutes ago, ien said:
True, but we shouldn't be truncating to a lower bit depth. If we dither the 16 bit the actual signal will sound the same as 24bit since the quantisation distortion will be gone. This can be tested by bouncing to 16bit with dither, inverting the polarity on it and then playing it alongside the 24 bit. The result will be silence.
Inverting without dither and we'll hear the quantisation distortion.
I'm aware of not truncating from 24Bits down to 16Bits.
The flip-phase example above would produce a result that's close to silence, but I don't think it can be absolute silence (dither noise is added to the 16Bit file - which is not present on the 24Bit file).
I get the point. 😉
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If you do use a Thunderbolt to Firewire adapter (to connect a Firewire audio interface to a Thunderbolt controller), it will not achieve PCIe level performance.
It's exactly the same as running a PCIe Firewire controller.
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OK, I'll explain it for you.
That adapter allows you to connected a FIREWIRE device to a Thunderbolt controller.
I mentioned earlier that Thunderbolt is essentially external PCIe.
This is similar to using a PCIe Firewire controller.
Firewire does not (can not) provide access to the PCIe bus.
That's what would be necessary to adapt/connect Quantum (or any other Thunderbolt audio interface).
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3 minutes ago, Steev said:
@Jim Roseberry Pssssst, don't tell anybody but you can get an Apple Thunderbolt to FireWire Adapter on Amazon for $29 FREE SHIPPING!
I have personally "Field Tested" this product EVERY DAY for about 2 YEARS NOW with my Universal Audio Apollo 8 Quad plugged in a Firewire port on my Mac.
For Windows Computers I highly recommend "SIIG" PCIe Firewire cards for robust and reliable performance.
🤣
Read the fine print, Steev.
Then come back and explain how it works.
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Show the $29 Apple Firewire-to-Thunderbolt adapter that allows connecting a Thunderbolt audio interface to a Firewire controller... and explain how it works.
Explain how you can connect ANY Thunderbolt audio interface (on PC) to a Thunderbolt-2 controller and achieve PCIe level performance.
When you talk about your audio interface having 2ms record latency, you do realize that's meaningless, correct?
That 2ms of latency is never heard (unless you're monitoring via software... and then it's much larger figure due to round-trip latency).
The 2ms is compensated for upon playback.
Some audio interfaces don't report their latency correctly; this is why all major DAW applications have a Record-Offset parameter.
Regarding Quantum vs. Apollo:
Quantum is by far the better low-latency performer.
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I think it's sensible to use different sample-rates depending on circumstances.
- If I'm working with video, I'm using 48kHz.
- If I'm working with AmpSims, and especially if the project isn't too large, I'll work at 96kHz.
- If we're cutting a VO in the studio for my wife (Morning show on the local classic-rock station), we'll record that at 44.1kHz.
IMO, There are many other aspects of a project that have a more profound effect on the final result than sample-rate.
- Song
- Arrangement
- Performance
- Mics/preamps/placement
I don't believe any record has ever been bought (or not) solely because of the sample-rate.
Craig mentioned that CbB has optional over-sampling.
Aliasing noise can result from processing distortion (AmpSim, etc). Using a higher sample-rate (or over-sampling) puts the aliasing up above human hearing.
When the HeadRush guitar processor was first released, it had audible aliasing noise. That issue has since been addressed (several firmware updates).
Aliasing sounds unnatural/nasty (not as bad as digital-clipping... but a close second). It sticks out like a sore-thumb.
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While a song is going "full-tilt" (especially if it's been peak-limited for high average level), you'll not notice the difference between 24Bit and 16Bit audio.
Listen to an isolated long reverb decay at 16Bits with no dither...
The end of the decay breaks up and sounds awful.
That same long reverb decay at 24Bits sounds smooth.
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Thunderbolt provides access to the PCIe bus. It's essentially external PCIe.
Firewire does not (never has... and cannot) provide access to the PCIe bus.
Thus, there is no Firewire to Thunderbolt adapter (not possible). There is a Thunderbolt-3 to Firewire adapter (which is similar to running a PCIe Firewire controller).
Never said Quantum was Thunderbolt-3 audio interface. (Right now, UA has Thunderbolt-3 on the Arrow... and as an option on Apollo.)
On a PC, Quantum has to be connected to a Thunderbolt-3 controller.
Microsoft only supports "PCIe via Thunderbolt" with Thunderbolt-3 controllers (there is no "PCIe via Thunderbolt" support for Thunderbolt-2 controllers).
Mac users can use an older Thunderbolt-2 controller... as OSX does support "PCIe via Thunderbolt" with Thunderbolt-2 controllers.
The reason why "PCIe via Thunderbolt" is important; it allows external devices to function as PCIe devices (just like an internal PCIe card).
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16 hours ago, Dave Horch said:
Well damn, I just wasted $17 on jbridge,
You may encounter 32Bit plugin/s that don't cope well with BitBridge.
Having jBridge as an alternative is worth the $17.
jBridge has numerous options to tweak... if you encounter a problematic 32Bit plugin.
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On 1/20/2019 at 2:27 AM, Larry Jones said:
I used this method. No malware or PUPs, and now I have the Group Policy Editor on my Win 10 Home machine. Apparently, Microsoft doesn't approve of this and "deprecates" various policies from time to time, possibly including the exact one you'd like to use. But, it's cheaper than buying Win 10 Pro (it's free!), and it might work, and who cares what Microsoft thinks?
Go legit... and there's no worries about broken Group Policy Editor.
At some point, your time and potential frustration is worth something.
- If you're loading from scratch, the OEM version of Win10 Pro is an additional $40.
- The in-place upgrade from Win10 Home to Pro is $100.
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On 1/20/2019 at 12:38 AM, AB3 said:
Thanks scook. But can a higher sample rate theoretically result in lower latency?
Latency of a 64-sample ASIO buffer size at each sample-rate:
- 44.1kHz = 1.5ms
- 48kHz = 1.3ms
- 88.2kHz = 0.73ms
- 96kHz = 0.67ms
- 176.2kHz = 0.036ms
- 192kHz = 0.033ms
Round-trip latency is the sum of the following
- ASIO input buffer
- ASIO output buffer
- The driver's (often hidden) safety-buffer
- Latency of the A/D D/A
Thus, at higher sample-rates, latency can be lower.
However, the CPU has far less time to fill the buffer... so CPU use is significantly higher.
Note that some audio interfaces won't allow using smaller ASIO buffer sizes at sample rates higher than 48k.
- ie: The UA Apollo goes down to a 32-sample ASIO buffer size, but you can't select a buffer size lower than 64-samples if working above 48kHz.
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Hi Bill,
You'd have latency from the A/D converter... but it would be sub 1ms.
Lightpipe travels at the speed of light.
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To further clarify...
If you fully disable all automatic updates (including notifications), Win10 will not automatically download updates to a temp folder.
Nothing is executed without the user starting the process.
Lowest Latency USB interface?
in Cakewalk by BandLab
Posted
FWIW, With Thunderbolt-3 under Windows 10, you've just got to be aware of all the details (leave nothing to chance).
We've used motherboards from both Asus and Gigabyte... as well as custom laptop shells from Clevo.
In all cases, whether the Thunderbolt-3 controller was integrated or AIC, performance was 100% reliable.
Presonus recommends the StarTech Thunderbolt-3 to Thunderbolt-2 adapter.
We've tested the Apple TB3>TB2 adapter under many different configurations (desktop and laptop)... and it's always worked fine.
I moved from an Apollo-8 Quad/Satellite Quad setup... to Quantum... because it yields incredibly low round-trip latency.
It's a gas to run Helix Native with 1ms total round-trip latency. I believe the hardware Helix has ~2ms round-trip latency.
A note about USB-C audio interfaces:
Though the units connect via USB-C port, all the models I've seen thus far are actually USB-2 (not USB-3.1 as you might expect).