Marcello

10 hours ago, bitflipper said:

"Too loud" is really a subjective thing, and somewhat dependent on the genre. Many popular releases are far louder than -8.3 LUFS. But streaming services and YouTube will automatically turn them down, so for them yes, it's too loud. For a CD, no problem.

For me personally, that would be too loud. I usually shoot for -14 for my own stuff. I'll go as high as -12 (integrated, -10 short-term) for aggressive rock that I'm mastering for someone else.

If -14 sounds too quiet,  turn up your monitors. Seriously, that's how it's done. Google the K-system and speaker calibration, it'll be a game-changer for you.

That's good I turn up the monitor, but when I listen to my song on my iPhone for instance (loaded in local WAV), as I suppose in all smartphones,  there's a maximum volume level which is not that high, so if I listen to the master I did at -14 or -12 on my iphone at maximum volume is not that high, or at least much lower than the songs I have on my iphone in local, if I use normal earphones and I'm in the middle of the traffic jam I will barely hear it.

Different story for home speakers or car speakers, you can turn up the volume as much as you want more or less so -14 won't be that much of an issue.

That's the problem for me, but I suppose that's how it should be.

Even if, as I said, I compared a Mogwai song in flac (High Def), which in youleanmeter shows at -5 LUFS, with the one on their Spotify profile and the volume is the same!

So it seems that spotify didn't really turned down the volume, I'm sure if you try with other artists songs, downloaded one with the same song on Spotify, to your ears the volume will be the same, maybe they pay Spotify for a louder version? no idea.

So this thing that Spotify turns down the volume if too high it doesn't seem to apply for major artists, to me the downloaded versions with the one on their spotify are exactly the same volume, even if on the meter it shows -5 LUFS!

So the thing that I still don't understand is, Why major artists songs are mastered at -5 LUFS??  I'm not speaking about thos on their spotify but those downloaded in the original format.

And why they sound much higher than my track if that is at -14?  If -14 is the suggested volume balance, why major artists songs are all breaking the rule?

1 minute ago, Glenn Stanton said:

in listening to Ian Shepard and other master folks - it's ok to have the LUFS higher than the online service suggests they're normalizing too - but it depends on the dynamic range and frequency content which will determine if it remains competitive or potentially is negatively impacted by the service (hence the reason for the loudness penalty app by Ian). i don't think you have to master for every service, but then again if you have a budget for it...

as a note, in the 90's, LUFS didn't exist 😉 that said, using mainstream material from the late 90's and early 00's is likely not a great reference in terms of levels for online as much of it is damaged goods from the loudness wars... i'd suggest that 8-10LUFS for a CD with a dynamic range of 5-6 would be loud and probably still decent to listen to... for online targets - 12-14 LUFS and 6-8 dynamic range would the be good where service is targeting 16 LUFS.

of course its really material dependent. 

Ok great thanks for your suggestions!

Even though to my ears -14 it sounds very low.

I have compared a downloaded version of a Mogwai song in high definition (flac) with the one on their Spotify, and to my ears the volume is the same!

Even if the flac version if analyzed in youlean meter is at about -5 LUFS! How is it possible? very strange

18 minutes ago, John Vere said:

How can your song sound quite if it it -14 or louder?  I think your using the meter somehow wrong. It should be the last thing in your master buss effects bin 

This is my song, how it looks to you?  Loudnesspenalty.com says I should turn it down  by 2.2, to me it seems already quite low, to my ears at least.

5 minutes ago, John Vere said:

I just googled the question and ever hit said-14 

https://www.masteringthemix.com/blogs/learn/76296773-mastering-audio-for-soundcloud-itunes-spotify-and-youtube?currency=CAD

Thanks for the link i have a read.

The thing is that  if I would follow this rule my song would sound much much less higher in volume if I compare it with other artists songs

3 minutes ago, John Vere said:

I edited my post to add something I thought of while you were posting 

Ok I see but then let's do one thing at the time.

Let's suppose Online platforms don't exist and we are in the 90s, what would be the average standard volume for a track do you know?

Because if Mogwai ,which is a huge band, has their album song at -5 LUFS  then it should be ok for a standard album volume?

Then after that I would make another master with lower volume exclusively for the online platforms what do you think?

Or should I find a balance? If I should follow these Spotify rules it says that I should turn the volume of my track  down -3.3, too much!

6 minutes ago, John Vere said:

Youlean loudness meter has pre sets to match format standards. The free version I don’t think you can change this. But with the paid version you can make custom or choose a preset. 
if you file goes over the pre set value then you get the clipping red marks. 
You can Google what the true peak and LUFS maximum amount is for different delivery systems. 
I’ll say that -8 LUFS is super loud. I use -12–14 LUFS. Possibly your reference tracks are suffering from the loudness wars. 
 

I know this thanks,

but the problem here is, should I make a different master version for each bloody online platform? Seriously? Since I'm paying for each master.

Anyway for regular album, like CD, Vinyl, WAV file, what would be the standard volume instead?

Also I have a reference Mogwai song I downloaded in flac format, so quite high definition.
When I analyze the song in the youlean meter it seems that is clipping, also if I upload the track on https://www.loudnesspenalty.com/
to see how much would be reduced in volume uploading the song in the different online streaming platfoms, it says it would be reduced like -8 for spotify and youtube.
So after that, I have listened to the song in the Mogwai spotify profile and compared it with the one I have in local in high definition by just listening to them and to my ears the volume is exactly the same!
So it seems that spotify didn't really turned down the volume.
Am I missing something here?
What should I do? of course I would like my song to sound higher in volume, like the Mogwai one, but then it would be turned down in spotify, even if would be, is that ok? Or should I have 2 master versions one for the CD, Vinyl and local WAV file and another for Spotify which would be lower?
Is there a standard volume I should refer to?

Hi guys!

one question, I have done a master with those online mastering tool automatically.

Now I want to check if it's too loud or not, I'm using Youlean Meter but I'm not sure how to use it.

It seems that is clipping but when I compare it with an artist reference track I have downloaded online in .FLAC format (so I suppose it's how it should be)  that's also clipping.

So, I know when you upload the track on the online streaming platforms it turns down the volume most of the times, like on spotify, but I suppose there should be a kind of "standard volume" for proper Albums?

That's what I would like I mean, I understand this can work for spotify but I also listen albums from downloaded tracks mostly in local so what would be the correct volume threshold? are these too loud?

If yes, why then  all the tracks I have downloaded in High Definition from different artists are also clipping if I check them out in Youlean Meter??

Also if I just listen to the reference track I used on Spotify and compare it with the one I have downloaded in flac and analyzed with the youlean meter, it's exactly the same volume, so it seems that spotify didn't really turned the volume down, how come if in this analyzer is clipping? 

Only thing I notice is the Loudness range in my song is higher than the reference track, but if I just compare the tracks to my ears, mine is way more quite than the reference track.

These are the two songs mine and the reference track as you can see they both clips

REFERENCE:

11 hours ago, John Nelson said:

Another option, insert FreeG as needed in the signal chain.  You can always leave fader at unity so as to use only the metering.  Or add gain where needed.

FreeG - Sienda (sonalksis.com)

Man thanks but be very carefull with FreeG plugin! I have put it on some busses and on the master fader, and basically after months of investigation I discovered what was applying a sort of stereo widener on my Track! It was the freeG! After you use it just remove it from the tracks! it mess up everything!

6 hours ago, Gswitz said:

You can set the meter to pre fader.

Yes I think I just need to set pre-fader, thanks!

3 hours ago, bitflipper said:

I don't see how disabling a meter could affect clipping. Meters just show what's going on and don't affect signal levels.

The only difference between gain and volume is where the adjustment happens in the signal chain: gain's at the front, volume's at the end. Metering happens at the end of the chain, so yes, it'll reflect the actual peak levels regardless of at what stage they were raised. And yes, raising either gain or volume can cause clipping. If it does, you'll definitely want to know about it, not hide it by disabling track volume metering.

I have a feeling the original question was just not worded well, and Marcello's friend just didn't explain clearly what he's doing in Reaper or why.

3 hours ago, John said:

Nor do I agree with the notion that volume can be ignored. Gain and volume are both important. Together they set the total volume for the track.  Bypassing the meter seems risky at best and dangerous at worst. 

Guys, from my understanding and from what my friend told me is that GAIN STAGING is about gain, and not about the volume fader, otherwise would be called Volume Staging and not Gain Staging

I understand the volume should be at 0 when you gain stage, ok, but then when you raise the volume fader up it affects the fader showing you that you are clipping, while you shouldn't cause the gain has already been set not to clip at volume 0!

I also understand the volume fader is at the end of the chain and the gain at the beginning, but my goal now is to gain stage the guitars so that their sound would be sweet and not distorted by the too much input level but either from the guitar amp sim.

In Reaper you are able to switch off the volume meter so that only moving the gain knob will show you if you are clipping or not.

Otherwise you will get confused, for instance now I would like to review all my tracks to see if I did the gain staging right initially, but I cannot without re-setting all volume faders at 0! I have already done the volume balance!

I don't know if I have been enough clear, I think Glenn got my point here.

I want to see only how the gain is affecting the clipping, not the volume!!

Hi there,

a friend of mine recording engineer using Reaper showed me he can disable the Track volume Meter maintaining only the Gain, in this way he can raise the volume up and down and it won't clip, while moving the Gain knob it it will still affect the peak meter.

This because the gain staging should be done considering only the gain amount, not the volume amount, if the volume bar affects the peak meter it just creates confusion, because you might think is clipping but is not! maybe the volume bar is just too high, because it's the GAIN that you should adjust.

So how do I disable the volume track meter in Cakewalk? anyone knows?

Hi there!

I have deleted the Click Bus by mistake, how do I bring it back?

5 minutes ago, Philip G Hunt said:

I've used Landr, Bandlab and I use izotope.

Landr tends to veer on the trebly. I've had good results from them, and they will always get the volume to broadcast levels...just make sure your original track is of decent audio dynamics as Landr cannot perform miracles on a crappy track.

This was done with landr: Listen to Leaving HITRECORD Instrumental remix by 53mph on #SoundCloud

https://soundcloud.app.goo.gl/5YuL1

Bandlab can be good but it can be a bit heavy handed on the compression. For the price (free) it's worth a try. 

This was done with Bandlab: Listen to Fake News [HitRecord collaboration with John Lithgow] by 53mph on #SoundCloud
https://soundcloud.app.goo.gl/Ln616

Izotope generally give s you the most flexibility. I've got my own preset that I work with (tweaking where necessary). I'm a bit underwhelmed by the AI. It never seems too hit the right EQ.

Thanks I check it out! This is the master from LANDR I did, I'mm not really an expert and I'm mixing with headphones at home but on forums the claimed is very hARSH and distorted, like if it's clipping? What do you think about it?  CHeck when the drums starts

Nice track by the way! love it

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S3W_Qmo-_AVZnhkxHCO5F7fU-FIvKkBB/view?usp=sharing

19 minutes ago, Wookiee said:

You are right in thinking that you can seek advice here, but many people have offered you good advice, not necessarily me, which you appear to me to be ignoring. 

Sorry but try not using LANDR getting some tools as I suggested in another post that are available for free. Also watch iZotopes series of videos on mastering on their site or YouTube. 

Not ignoring but to be honest I was expecting LANDR to work decently, probably it doesn't work properly because my mix is not good enough, you have to feed him with a good mix in order to work.

I think that I still didn't learn mixing so Mastering would probably be next level up, so maybe I will try to ask help from a friend who has a recording studio.

1 hour ago, jack c. said:

this is a place for all of us to learn/grown try not to take comments to personal.way to many fills all over the place.i've been playing/recording/arranging  since the beatles came about which is me major forte.i have relative pitch,self taught i can't read/write music.i play guitar left handed and bass,and keyboards.just some insight for all.i'm not here to put-down cut anyone up in any way,as manyyyyyyyyyyyy others through years have helped me i desire to extend me magical ears and thoughts.jack c.

yea fair enough fine but I know what I'm doing I grew up with chaotic hardcore music and this stuff is ok, I wasn't expecting an opinion on the composition I was more asking about the mix itself and the sound.

Hi guys,

I have mixed a song I did at home, unfortunately I don't have a proper studio with a proper audio system, I'm mixing with my Marshall monitors headphones and some pretty powerful sony bluetooth speakers, I know I should buy something decent and bla bla bla, I'm aware, but for the moment how these sound to you?

I did a mix, then I used LANDR AI mastering platform online where you upload your mix and spits out a master, easy pisy, again I know I should send it to a mastering engineer and bla bla bla, but this stuff I'm doing is pretty DYI, I don't pretend to have a professional release but I just want it good enough.

I have two mastered versions here, which one sounds better to you? to me the second one, is much wider, even though someone told me is too harsh and compressed? is it true? The guitars are distorted to hell, I know and I like it like that cause is Rock, but I still can't tell the difference from normal guitar distortion to "HOT" to be honest, I'm quite a newbie.

Please give your honest opinion thanks

1st master

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LK1jBQ2v5Lus0waq9tEwHaNrNQySg8H-/view?usp=sharing

2nd master

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LK1jBQ2v5Lus0waq9tEwHaNrNQySg8H-/view?usp=sharing

Just now, Jesse Screed said:

Hey, this is hotter than the surface of the sun.

I dig the concept, 1:20 is nice, and yes it stays good, kind of zeppy/yessey

For me, back off

in other words

if you like it that is all that matters

 

Are you using the youlean meter?

Speaking about the mix or the mastered version?

Because the mix should be at -6db to leave room for the master. 
The master should not go over 0 dbs, as far as I can see from the meter the master doesn’t go over that, I compared it with a song from Mogwai I downloaded in flac and the volume is the same, the meter is pretty much the same.

so can it be that is not clipping but maybe guitars are too harsh? Dunno too much high end maybe or compression?

Are you sure you are not confusing guitar distortion like big muff pedal kinda, with Hot (clipping)?

3 hours ago, jack c. said:

i mix with external monitors and for some final touch ups use headphones.too many busy drums.i like sounds within song.guitar around 349 sounds distorted.

What do you mean with too many busy drums? Drums are fine, probably the genre is not your cup of tea?

The drums sounds to me is the one I'm most satisfied with, I'm not sure about the guitars, if in the master are too compressed? once you drop the mix in LANDR the algorithm applies some AI EQ, I used a reference track from Mogwai, so I think LANDR tried to apply the same EQ, but maybe in doing that it compressed the guitars? are they too harsh? 

The one at 349 is a guitar with big muff pedal, is supposed to be like that, again not sure if you are confident with the genre.

26 minutes ago, Wookiee said:

I don't claim to be an expert but I have had a listen which leaves me with some questions.

What levels are you recording at? i.e. how are you gain staging this.

Is the acoustic guitar intentionally distorted?

Looking at the wave file in Soundforge Pro 15 the overall levels when the whole band kicks in looks about right for pre mastering levels. Prior to the the signal is very low.

Examining the frequency spread/content of the wave using Span shows that is little below about 80hZ with a very steep roll off and equally very little above 5kHz with an equally steep roll off.

So The acoustic guitar is intentionally distorted a bit cause I like it that way,  otherwise would sound too thin, and weak personal taste.

What you are saying is that the solo guitar part at the beginning is too quiet (in volume) compared to the part where the band starts? I tried to give some dynamics there, maybe too much?

About the frequencies, did you check the mix or the master?

Is the master too compressed compared to the mix?

The mix to me sounds a bit muddier than the master, I agree with Bayan though  tthat the master might be too bright? or maybe is just too compressed by LANDR?

hi guys!

i really need an opinion from some expert on my mix cause I’m mixing at home with headphones on my own and I don’t have external feedbacks on my work.

I’m quite a newbie and this is my song that I did with programmed drums and guitars amp sims. 
I then used LANDR AI automatic mastering platform online, you just drop your song and comes out the mastered version, I used a reference track from Mogwai since I play post rock stuff.

do you think the mix version is better than the master? Someone from a forum told me this, the master is too compressed and too much in you face, also the drums disappear in the master. He also claims that is confusing and I should EQ more to make space for different instrument frequencies.

also around minute 4, the instruments are a bit out of time.

what do you think? Is he right? Do you confirm all these things?

I don’t pretend to have a professional mix cause I’m doing everything at home, but I just want it good enough.

Mastered

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IZN1eH2jW2s5eJMiFKTG7XLs0AShSLdN/view?usp=sharing

MIX only

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12l7wh6Nrken01P-DP8AdZ-PzrxO_Yn2p/view?usp=sharing

hi guys!

i really need an opinion from some expert on my mix cause I’m mixing at home with headphones on my own and I don’t have external feedbacks on my work.

I’m quite a newbie and this is my song that I did with programmed drums and guitars amp sims. 
I then used LANDR AI automatic mastering platform online, you just drop your song and comes out the mastered version, I used a reference track from Mogwai since I play post rock stuff.

do you think the mix version is better than the master? Someone from a forum told me this, the master is too compressed and too much in you face, also the drums disappear in the master. He also claims that is confusing and I should EQ more to make space for different instrument frequencies.

also around minute 4, the instruments are a bit out of time.

what do you think? Is he right? Do you confirm all these things?

I don’t pretend to have a professional mix cause I’m doing everything at home, but I just want it good enough.

Mastered

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IZN1eH2jW2s5eJMiFKTG7XLs0AShSLdN/view?usp=sharing

MIX only

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12l7wh6Nrken01P-DP8AdZ-PzrxO_Yn2p/view?usp=sharing

2 hours ago, Hidden Symmetry said:

I've tried several AI mastering services since they started a few years ago including LANDR. I'm not an M/E by any stretch but I always prefer my own results. I expect that though because AI only compares & adjusts your track against an algorithm, it's not actually hearing it so naturally there's many variables it can't account for.

I'm not saying one can't get good results just be aware of what it does, what it can & can't do.

(BandLab has this free mastering feature, you might want to give it a shot too.)

https://www.bandlab.com/mastering

One thing I would keep in mind is that your mix should basically sound the way you want it to before having it mastered, whether it's using AI or professionally done. I'd also try having a track professionally mastered sometime then compare it to AI or your own mastering skills as a reference.

MM doesn't seem to work, I drop the song nothing happens. Mmmm I think LANDR is probably much better

58 minutes ago, Hidden Symmetry said:

I've tried several AI mastering services since they started a few years ago including LANDR. I'm not an M/E by any stretch but I always prefer my own results. I expect that though because AI only compares & adjusts your track against an algorithm, it's not actually hearing it so naturally there's many variables it can't account for.

I'm not saying one can't get good results just be aware of what it does, what it can & can't do.

(BandLab has this free mastering feature, you might want to give it a shot too.)

https://www.bandlab.com/mastering

One thing I would keep in mind is that your mix should basically sound the way you want it to before having it mastered, whether it's using AI or professionally done. I'd also try having a track professionally mastered sometime then compare it to AI or your own mastering skills as a reference.

What do you think about the result? this is my mastered track

Consider I recorded everything at home with plugins.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/194c9NPxosIj_21e1dYmQgqLrEC0VVWPY/view?usp=sharing

done thanks!

ANYONE use LANDR AI for Mastering?

What's your opinion?