Quinellipe Zorn

@Byron Dickens care to elaborate? Are you referring to the workaround, or is there somewhere in this thread what the cause is and how to proactively ensure it doesn't happen?

I think we're way off track... All I can say is I was asking the question, I asked, I wasn't trying to make a point: do you think Cakewalk's user will parse it as finely as you did in the particular post way back when? PS - I think this was specifically re "lifetime" subscribers, not just "Cakewalk's users," rather, IIRC, but the lack of quote-in-quote makes it harder to go back, though I seem to recall that was the particular matter and subgroup at hand.

??? Even aside from that I wasn't discussing what I, you, or any particular individual thinks, as it is about what might be reasonable expectations for Bandlab to face among some segment of their user base, however unfairly, I don't understand the relationship of this to the discussion at hand as we were talking about whether Bandlab should expect, fairly or not, people to hold them responsible to make things right with Cakewalk's history, abiding by the things that were "good" and fixing the things that were "bad" (e.g. accounting for Gibson's lifetime offers somehow). What you seem to be discussing is whether Gibson would be held responsible for something that Bandlab does with Cakewalk, which seems out of the blue to me. But if you want to know, for whatever reason, I doubt it very much. Although I'm quite sure people are holding Disney responsible, probably rarely fairly but mostly unfairly, to "fix" as well as "honor" George Lucas' legacy with Star Wars. That said, I don't know anything about Star Wars under Disney, about George Lucas outside of Star Wars and some wild rumors about his personal life, nor about Star Wars beside seeing 2 of the chronologically first released 3 (was never a fan, saw the first one as a kid and didn't care for it, saw the 3rd one with friends because it was with friends) and reading smatterings of the mythos around Star Wars, though not enough to remember exactly what a Sith is or how the Paladins or whatever separated from them, etc.. For the record, as you asked me. On topic, I believe that Bandlab should expect that, fairly or not, a lot of people will hold them accountable to make good on the good and bad of Gibson's past. Now, that doesn't mean they should just do what people want. It just means they shouldn't be surprised about, e.g., people demanding consideration for their lifetime subscriptions. So long as they can see a valid business direction which continues to turn a profit and/or, given contemporary expectations, grow their user base, what they do is yet another matter. Whether I or any "right-thinking" person should or will hold Bandlab responsible is irrelevant; I don't, but, as said, I think they have to know - just as seen on this thread - people will, fairly or not (actually both I've seen, from my own opinion; personally I think the fair thing they should do is give some sort of benefit to lifetime subscribers, some upgrade/crossgrade opportunity at a discount, or maybe, if their finances seem to make sense, some small discount eternally; I don't think it's fair or reasonable to hold Bandlab to lifetime subscriptions, especially considering that the business practice, even besides being inherently questionable, was undertaken by a failed company, so hardly seems reasonable to expect a successor company to repeat the same practices).

Thanks!

I'm not sure if that's rhetorical or a literal question, and if it's for me or the OP asked the similar question. But if literal to me as asking whether I think that the situation is akin to Disney taking over Star Wars and that Disney, in that situation, should realize (whatever they decide) that they have to deal with the notion they take responsibility for the whole legacy of it, then, yes, I think it is similar as to the nature of the question/situation, though a key difference is, of course, the sort of industry and how that impacts expectations: in the Disney/Star Wars case there's the whole additional question of the production of a story/narrative/mythos and questions around individual artistic expressions, etc.. But, yes, I suppose it's similar, and, if we were talking about Disney and Star Wars, I would raise the same sort of question as shouldn't Disney expect to inherit all the issues of Star Wars, even though they didn't create those issues, again noting that this can still be totally unfair.

I wonder how technically true that is legally re old Sonar software? The only reason I wonder is that a lot of abandonware isn't technically legal to run, but as it is abandonware, it really doesn't matter, unless, of course, as happens, the publisher or some successor is actively exerting control over that (which a few do, which I find ridiculous in most situations). Along these lines, even if it's legal to run, it's usually illegal to "mess with" the software (e.g. the owners of PARIS, at least as of a couple years ago, were still forbidding third party redevelopment and hacking of the old licensing). I don't mean to dispute the fact of being able to run Sonar "forever" (hardware, OS, etc. permitting), and I don't mean any argument over the point you make there, I was just musing having known of the legal idiocies around abandonware. Love to see the old disks, I think that's the one I started on, though I may have had "1.3" or something that a friend first turned me onto back then, can't recall well anymore.

I can't really understand this. I mean, yes, clearly, the move from a payment-by-email/usage information and payment-by-money model is a relationship changer in some way, but I don't get this notion that somehow we were "in this together" when we paid by usage and email and now this is divorce. We gave them usage information and helped them decide on their commercial next steps thereby; their decisions from our input until now wasn't out of any pure good will as a part-time hobby in off hours, Bandlab paid the "bakers"/engineers and designers and so forth, not us. PS - I am saying the first sentence literally, this is a question, not an argument back or such, as I really don't understand the point being made about, how the relationship is changing because the price of the product is changing from "free"/identity and usage tracking to money. I don't understand the meaning of " what [was] created [was] a participatory, collaborative community, where everyone [sought] the same end, which [was] the constant improvement of the program." I mean, I'm quite familiar (despite my extremely low prior engagement) with the close interactions of the Cakewalk users and the Cakewalk engineers, but I'm not aware of how that became a "participatory, collaborative community" where "everyone" sought the "same end" these last 5 years versus the prior decades, where (most of the time) I saw the same back-and-forth between users and engineers, and it has always been in the interest of the engineers, even if not management necessarily in certain critical times, to "improve the product." So I really just don't understand, I'm not trying to argue, I'm trying to express why I don't understand. I thought I should edit and elaborate given a couple reactions.

Good points. Re "Update the workflow in several areas where things haven't moved in years. Other DAWs have much easier ways to do various things." - I'd love to hear what things people want in this regard. I think it makes sense, but with my history, I don't personally have great ideas of where to update the workflow. (And I'd hope improvements wouldn't render the "less efficient" steps from being possible, if only because at least it seems to me what I'm doing is what's intuitive, even if there's going to be much better ways.) Agree especially re API/javascript/something modern to replace CAL, and re improving MIDI generation and editing (it's a little sad that the once-upon-a-time MIDI flagship no longer is. and I still find MIDI manipulation quite valuable). And re scoring.

100% with this. I'm professionally familiar with software in enterprise as well as small business and personal contexts. The notion of bug fixes beyond some shelf life is so rare that I find it unrealistic to expect. I'm happy wherever that exists and for those with the benefit. I believe the marketplace expectation these days is that a software deliver its so-called "material" obligation, i.e. that it delivers essential functionality while it normally (for a software of any complexity) has ongoing bugs which, while annoying, should not present an intolerable breach of functionality. Should life be different? Probably. Nature "should" be fair too...but reality...

I imagine it's trial-ballooning a bit, and I hope that Bandlab is hearing how many want a "perpetual" license and that many support the notion of paying an "annual" fee only once (or in installments) resulting in said "perpetual" license.

What do you expect coming at people with statements such as and in particular "Anyone who thinks it through long term will come to the same conclusion."? You are stating no opinion at that point, you are claiming an absolute fact and with not an implication but a declaration that anyone believing otherwise is just plain wrong, no matter what their situation.

Ah thanks! Apologies (to everyone) I posted my question too soon.

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I see no urgency to find out more about the coming commercial model. Now or 6 months or a year from mow, so long as until then the software continues to at least function as it does today.

While that's cool to express, personally I believe I've gotten so much value out of CbB compared to the cost of my email information and having paid again for Sonar many years ago that $200 for no change at all except for a financially-based right to use with clear terms is just fine.

What generative AI features will be added? (JUST kidding/commenting on the AI-everywhere hype, not actually making any comments on generative AI or the like, nor implying any sort of thoughts at all re Sonar and AI).

I want to add: I was not so interested in Cakewalk when Gibson ran it and was uncommitted. ONLY with Bandlab's curation and in particular not only fixing bugs but improving the software, after years of neglect and what I would even characterize as abuse, did I come fully back to using Cakewalk/"CbB". If Bandlab had treated this like "any" software and hadn't committed not only to the software but even the customer base and prior valued designers/engineers, and shown an interest in making up for the history and catering to unusual expectations, I doubt I'd be engaged now.

But, and I'm only curious here, do you believe that the company (in this case Bandlab) should expect its user base to have the same fine parsing / respect of legalism that you have of this, as opposed to accept that popular perception will see them as inheriting all aspects (however unfairly)? At least/especially when said company expresses itself via a famed brand name (i.e. Cakewalk in this case)?

Although I really like this, I can see any organization not tolerating the complexity of this. I would be highly conflicted were I an internal architect working on this, and would depend primarily, therefore, on the company strategy. If the company is product-centric, it probably isn't a good idea, I believe. But if a company is customer-centric, I think it is worth embracing the complexity.

Wow. Nope.

Just to give my own input to Bandlab, I'd like to see both a subscription model and the prior ownership model. I don't see subscriptions as bad, I see them as "a" viable option, the ideal company providing both "ownership"/perpetual licensing and "rental"/temporary licensing models.

I missed the "feature" of "Sonar specific Plug-ins". Not a fan of proprietary/DAW company-sponsored singular platform plugins. No disrespect to the greatness of the Cakewalk strip!

I'm just curious what purpose CbB fulfilled for you?

I feel like Cakewalk's UX is rather cemented, it's hard to imagine Bandlab, having made their DAW entry on the Cakewalk crowd, from departing radically from the trad UX. I've used Cubase and Logic, as well as PARIS for a long time, ended up back with Cakewalk/Sonar after ~15 years of barely using it, and while it's radically transformed from its pre-audio/MIDI-only days, I have to say its paradigm remained/remains familiar - and, to me, likable, though that's just preference. I suppose it has something to do with its Windows-related UI.

Same; I'm an OLD user of Cakewalk, back from the '90s before it was "Sonar", and frankly bringing back the Sonar name gives me no comfort in and of itself BUT I have really appreciated how Bandlab not only kept the old DAW alive but even made it more reliable as well as even improved it. I'm also encouraged that Bandlab is going full-throttle with Cakewalk/Sonar, betting their DAW/music production future on it. That said, it's been an amazing benefit not paying for updates to CbB so that I could invest in more video as well as audio plugins and software, will miss that!