Using a digital mixer with Sonar

[gmp]

Can I use a digital mixer to adjust EQ and add reverb onto a Sonar track like an Analog mixer? Can the knobs be programmed to adjust anything in Sonar? I have a Studiomix for flying fader automation. It doesn't look like anyone makes flying faders in an Analog mixer. My Budget is $1500-3000. 

Also can a Digital mixer handle inputting analog synths, so they're assigned to the Digital mixer faders? And having them playback with my midi from Sonar. Sometimes I'd like to record the synth also into Sonar. I'm just wondering if a digital mixer can do all this or if I should continue to use an analog mixer and StudioMix.

For decades I've used a  Mackie 16 track analog mixer with 8 buses and a Studiomix control surface with flying faders for drawing automation curves in Sonar I'm a keyboard player and mostly just record vocals or 1 live instrument at a time. I have a MOTU Ultralite AVB audio interface.

For songwriter demos I prefer to do a quick board mix, since it's convenient to have the faders and knobs handy on my analog mixer.  I record the mixer's output back into Sonar, so I can stop and  punch in a mix.   

Whereas on more serious mixes I do the mixes inside of Sonar using the flying faders from my Studiomix to control volume levels. This is where a digital mixer may be useful, hopefully to add EQ, reverb and FX.

Any suggestions?

[Amberwolf]

What specifically do you mean by "digital mixer"?   An example link would be helpful.   

I ask because if you're looking at things that don't have analog inputs, they won't be able to take analog synth inputs directly--you'd have to use an A/D converter of whatever type is needed to convert to whatever the DM takes.

 

To add effects, by itself, the DM would have to have those built into it, or you would have to buy (or have) external units to connect to it's sends or fx loops (if it has any), etc.   

 

If you mean other things, you'll need to specify what that is.  

[reginaldStjohn]

Yes to almost all your questions. A digital mixer is just like an analog mixer except that it converts all the analog audio coming into it to digital, just like a daw. Any audio outputs are coverted from digital to analog on the way out.  The digital side makes it possible to do routing that would be difficult or more expensive on an analog console. Also the effects in a digital mixer are usually done on the digital side.

I don't now about all digital mixers but I do have a Behringer X32 producer. You can input whatever analog gear you want, microphones, guitars, keyboards etc.  It also has a 32 in/32 out USB audio interfrace.  You can have your DAW of choice receive audio input from the mixers inputs and output to the mixer's output.  

It has motorized faders that remember different scenes, busses, aux, sends or channel levels.  It can act as a DAW controller but is somewhat limited in that it doesn't have pots for panning and not all the knobs and buttons on the console can be used for DAW control. I have used the faders to control channels in Sonar and other DAWS and setup some buttons to do play/stop/pause control

Other Digital mixers will have varied features so you would need to do your homework to determine which, if any suit your needs.

[gmp]

Thanks for explaining how a digital mixer converts analog signals into digital. I wonder how that will work with my Motu audio interface right now I’m sending analog signals from my analog mixer. Will it accept digital signals? I’m wondering if there are any digital mixers that will control different parameters in sonar for instance EQ settings.  It may be a little tricky but not impossible to set a knob on a digital mixer to control a high frequency knob or Fader, i’m just not exactly sure what sort of signals a digital mixer will send to sonar.

For instance, the Studiomix is actually using midi signals to change volume settings. Essentially, we were talking about two different things. The studiomix is a control surface and it has 2 midi chords attached to it so it’s clearly sending and receiving midi signals to make the faders adjust the volume of tracks in sonar my big question is are digital mixers, controlling sonar in some way by sending signals to control volume or different parameters in FX

[gmp]

Amberwolf this is what I'm referring to with a digital mixer - like this Allen and Health

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Qu16Chrome--allen-and-heath-qu-16-chrome-edition-digital-mixer?irclickid=W9JV-mRCNxycW1tUH6195zwIUkp15ewOuXEQwE0&irgwc=1&utm_source=Impact&utm_medium=Facundo Arceo&utm_campaign=Online Tracking Link

[AB99]

I believe the A&H digital mixers can output to digital to Sonar using its USB output, so it is just an A/D conversion going in.  I would not convert it to analog before going into Sonar, just use the USB.   Of course, a D/A conversion will be needed later to listen to it which I believe can be done on the A&H mixer again.  General rule, the less conversions, the better.  But converters are starting to get so good, that this rule is not as strict as it was some years ago.

Edited Monday at 12:25 AM by AB99

[azslow3]

9 hours ago, gmp said:

I’m wondering if there are any digital mixers that will control different parameters in sonar for instance EQ settings.  It may be a little tricky but not impossible to set a knob on a digital mixer to control a high frequency knob or Fader, i’m just not exactly sure what sort of signals a digital mixer will send to sonar.

Yes, "a little tricky, but not impossible". Not really "a little", depending from the mixer and what you want.

Some DMs can send MIDI or something else comparable to it (OSC) or convertible to it (proprietary daemons) when you operate its physical controls (or change corresponding parameters by other means, f.e. using Tablet App to control the mixer). The purpose of that capability can be:

1) explicit DAW (or some MIDI device) control. In this case the control/parameter on the mixer is not changing anything on the mixer itself.

2) syncing one mixer to another (f.e. old Yamaha) or controlling the mixer from outside (A&H, Behringer, etc.). In this case corresponding mixer parameters are changed.

When a mixer supports "DAW control", that is of the first kind. As special control layout on the mixer. Normally limited, just strip volumes/mutes plus transport. And even that can be limited to 8 channels only (even on devices with 16-24 strips).

When you use the second approach, you "sync" parameters between the DAW and the mixer. F.e. HP Freq of internal mixer EQ and HP Freq in EQ plug-in. Obviously you can't use that mixer channel "normally", its EQ will be DAW EQ dependent (but that can be used in the opposite direction, you control hardware EQ using parameters from software EQ).

If you read in the documentation for the mixer "Mackie compatible control", it is the first kind. You can use standard Mackie surface plug-in in Sonar. In all other cases, including the second approach, you need special solution (Studiomix is working throw own special solution).

For Qu16 (note the solution is old, I never had the device and so I can't check it is still working): https://www.azslow.com/index.php/topic,178.0.html

Behringer (Midas) expose all parameters throw OSC, so the second approach is theoretically possible with any mixer parameter. "Theoretically" because that was never tested with AZ Controller and probably need modifications to support (for X32/M32 I know which, for Wing and other I have not checked). Or you can use some other OSC to MIDI converter.

In general, check the documentation of particular DM to find what/if it supports in terms of DAW controlling / MIDI / OSC. There are no standards. Each model is different, even from the same company.

 

[gmp]

So a  digital mixer is just like an analog mixer except that it converts all the analog audio coming into it to digital. So does this eliminate the need for an audio interface?  I have a MOTU Ultralite AVB and I have a pretty complicated custom routing set up inside it and never really need to change it. 

Throw OSC is very interesting and may be the answer to all of this possibly. There are several digital mixers using throw OSC. Is Sonar able to receive and make sense of throw OSC to change parameters?

For sure I'd like to hopefully find a user that has done this successfully. I think the biggest hurdle will be finding a mixers that can send throw OSC messages to Sonar to control EQ in a plugin of my choice in a Sonar FX bin. 

AZ Controller, MIDI controller Plug-in for SONAR sounds very interesting. If anyone has used this along with a Digital mixer to control Sonar, please let us know.

[reginaldStjohn]

GMP, Yes, most digital mixers are an audio interface as well so you don't need another audio interface. You again would need to investigate each mixer your interested in to see what its capabilities are.

[azslow3]

15 hours ago, gmp said:

So a  digital mixer is just like an analog mixer except that it converts all the analog audio coming into it to digital. So does this eliminate the need for an audio interface?  I have a MOTU Ultralite AVB and I have a pretty complicated custom routing set up inside it and never really need to change it. 

Technically MOTU AVB and other audio interfaces with internal mixing capabilities are "digital mixers". Dedicated digital mixers also  convert everything into digital and do the rest using build-in computer. And since the audio is already in digital form, it is "natural" to send it to computer when required, so function as an audio interface. Some mixers are stage oriented and have no audio interface, but most do (or have such option). Pre-amps in some  (cheaper) stage oriented mixers have lower quality. Digital mixers as audio interfaces in general have higher latency then usual audio interfaces, they are not designed for "throw DAW" monitoring since they have "sufficient" effects on-board. 

If live control without computer and build-in effects are not required, there is no reason switching to DM.  DAW control is simpler and better with a dedicated control surface.

 

15 hours ago, gmp said:

Throw OSC is very interesting and may be the answer to all of this possibly. There are several digital mixers using throw OSC. Is Sonar able to receive and make sense of throw OSC to change parameters?

For sure I'd like to hopefully find a user that has done this successfully. I think the biggest hurdle will be finding a mixers that can send throw OSC messages to Sonar to control EQ in a plugin of my choice in a Sonar FX bin. 

AZ Controller, MIDI controller Plug-in for SONAR sounds very interesting. If anyone has used this along with a Digital mixer to control Sonar, please let us know.

Sonar doesn't has stock surface plug-in with OSC. Also all stock plug-ins are not flexible. (Any) VST can be controlled by real MCU and clones, DM emulations may have insufficient buttons to switch into that mode (and/or select the plug-in to control). AZ Controller can be configured to do anything possible in Sonar (from Control Surface), the problem someone has to configure it (and that can be challenging). If you just want control control Volume/Pan/Mute and switch to controlling plug-ins (f.e. EQ) using the same controls, that is relatively simple with AZ Controller (also possible in Cakewalk Generic surface or Cakewalk ACT MIDI, but for limited number of controls and without feedback).

BTW you can start with TouchDAW / TouchOSC on a tablet. Both work with stock Cakewalk plug-ins and AZ Controller and cost almost nothing. The functionality of TouchDAW is exactly the same as with real MCU. TouchOSC can be configured to work as any surface. The only difference with real devices - no hardware controls. 

[gmp]

Thanks azslow3, I'm amazed at your immense knowledge about all this. Since speed and efficiency is very important to me,  considering my studio records all sorts of Independent artists and songwriters. This is why the analog mixer is quick  and handy for doing rough mixes or good songwriter demo mixes, that I usually don't need to tweak. I always record the output of my mixer back into Sonar. For songwriter demos i record the vocal mix and also the instrumental mix, since I rarely need to tweak the instrumental mix, just the vocal.

For Album projects, I always do all the mixing in Sonar, so I can easily make changes to everything, if needed. So from what you said, it appears I should just stick with an analog mixer and my Studiomix, On rare occasions that someone wants to record with a live band in the studio, I book a great tracking studio and they send me all the wav files to do the final vocals and mixing in my studio. My studio is too small to have a drum booth and record live. 

If anyone feels I would benefit from a Digital mixer in my situation, please chime in

[Bass Guitar]

Digital mixers are for the most part designed for live shows but they can also be first class audio interfaces. But that just like all audio interfaces depends on the quality of the ASIO drivers. 
I can personally vouch for Behringer, Zoom and Yamaha having good drivers but I’d want to research Allen and 

 

You are looking at $&$$$ for the desks used in pro studios. But the live band consumer models are definitely top notch for smaller studios. 
The Behringer x32 with the Midas pre amps is worth looking at. I have a X18 rack. 
 

Your statement about using analog mixer is very interesting because that is how many long time sound engineers feel. The controls are right there in front of you. 

Example my Soundcraft 10 and My Zoom L8. They are both basically the same channel count and features but the Soundcraft has 72 controls and the Zoom has only 10. The Soundcraft is 3 X bigger. 
 

I have a 1997 Yamaha O1v digital mixer that is still working almost like new. It has outlived dozens of my  analog mixers. 
 

One huge advantage to digital mixers is the ability to save scenes. My Yamaha has scenes that go back 20 years. 
It is dead simple to use its midi capabilities to record events and play them back. It’s got motorized faders so it’s fun to watch clients jump out their chairs when they move around during playback. 
 

 

Edited Tuesday at 05:29 PM by Bass Guitar

[Base 57]

As I said in your other thread, the real issue is budget. For under $2000 all of the analog options are inferior to their digital counterparts in every way. Add a digit to your budget and things are different. 

 

The Trident 68- 16 channel 8 bus mixer is currently on sale for $10,000.

www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TAD68-16--trident-audio-developments-trident-68-16-channel-modular-analog-mixing-console

[AB99]

19 minutes ago, Base 57 said:

As I said in your other thread, the real issue is budget. For under $2000 all of the analog options are inferior to their digital counterparts in every way. Add a digit to your budget and things are different. 

 

The Trident 68- 16 channel 8 bus mixer is currently on sale for $10,000.

www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TAD68-16--trident-audio-developments-trident-68-16-channel-modular-analog-mixing-console

There are some good deals on used analog mixers, such as Midas Venice and Allen and Heath.   And for any digital mixer, the mic pres in them do matter.  Allen and Heath does a good job with mic pres.  Soundcraft is also very good.  Alsmost none of which are as good as dedicated mic pres.

[Base 57]

5 minutes ago, AB99 said:

There are some good deals on used analog mixers,

If used is an option, then yeah. He would be trading his current problems with his 8 bus for someone else's. 

10 minutes ago, AB99 said:

Allen and Heath does a good job with mic pres.

I do a lot of work at a local theatre with an Allen and Heath QU32. The preamps in it sound really good.