Resolved: Sonar Platinum Volume Automation question

[Larry T.]

I'm really enjoying Sonar Platinum. But, I'm not a fan of Volume Limiting tools so I use Sonar's Volume Automation and manually set the high volume cut off points. 

The issue I'm having is repeatability or consistency in the audio level after I've made a level change. Sometimes the audio adjustment aligns with the audio level reading, sometimes it's off by like 2.3dB's, so I adjust but then the next audio level doesn't correlate to the change I made.

This happened the last few years with the CbB version so I thought it wouldn't happen with Sonar.

Is this just a normal hiccup in all DAW's or something that can be fixed by the Sonar team?

TIA.

Edited yesterday at 07:30 PM by Larry T.

[Amberwolf]

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're doing vs what you're seeing.  So I will just explain my understanding of the control I think you're using, and see if this matches your expectations of it:

You can set a track volume with automation, but this doesn't change the audio itself *to* that volume, it just moves the volume fader to that position, essentially either subtracting that many dB (-values of automation) or adding that many dB (+values).  

So just like having a track volume at 0dB doesn't mean your audio will be output at 0dB, setting the volume to say, -3dB doesnt' make it -3dB, it just reduces whatever volume the audio actually is at by -3dB.   If your audio is peaking up at +4.3dB at that point, it will now peak at +1.3dB if the volume is set to -3dB, because it reduced it by that much. 

Does that help, or am I misunderstanding what you're doing and seeing?

 

 

 

[Larry T.]

Hi man. Yes, I understand what your saying. That is how I perceive and use the Volume Automation, as the volume fader of that track. It works as I expect it to most of the time.

But, I will take another look at what you posted to see if my understanding of Volume Automation is faulty. Thanks.

 

Edit:

So, you don't have this problem, then?

Edited Thursday at 03:54 AM by Larry T.

[Amberwolf]

Just now, Larry T. said:

That is how I perceive and use the Volume Automation, as the volume fader of that track. It works as I expect it to most of the time.

What do you see, exactly, when it does not work as expected?   More detail is better, to see if we can figure out what's going on.  

[Bristol_Jonesey]

Volume automation and limiting are not really the same thing, and there are other tools you could use, such as compression.

But, just like Amberwolf, I'm struggling to really understand the problem so further clarification would be welcome.

[Larry T.]

Thanks so much for the replies.

The problem is inconsistent stability after making a Volume adjustment up or down in the volume adjustment line. 

I get different readings in the fader volume level, sometimes in the red, sometimes in the yellow, sometimes not red nor yellow after making a calculated audio level adjustment based on the fader level reading.

Obviously, you guys don't have this problem. I had it previously in the last few years with the free CbB version. 

It's intermittent, impossible to predict, rendering the tool useless at that point in time.

Usually I get frustrated and try later which sometimes works. It's not a deal breaker as I can always try other ways to make the correction.

Edited Thursday at 12:34 PM by Larry T.

[Bristol_Jonesey]

There are at least a couple of really good compressors at your disposal.

If you're on the paid Sonar, check out the Core Compressor, which supersedes  the old Sonitus Compressor

You get instant visual feedback on what you're doing and if you're new to compression, there are hundreds of videos on Youtube

[David Baay]

3 hours ago, Larry T. said:

I get different readings in the fader volume level, sometimes in the red, sometimes in the yellow, sometimes not red nor yellow after making a calculated audio level adjustment based on the fader level reading.

It's still not clear to me what you're saying. To me '"fader volume level" is the position of the fader control and has no direct relation to meter colors. And when you say "calculated audio level adjustment based on the fader level reading", this is the opposite of the way I would express it which would be "calculated fader position based on audio level reading (vs. desired reading). That 'reading' could be either an estimated peak or RMS level in the meter or the precise numeric peak value shown at the top of track meters and the bottom of console meters.

Also, aside from custom themes in CbB, Sonar's track and console meters don't really have what I would call a "yellow" range or a red range that you can be "in", only green below -6dBFS  and orange above it with red clipping indicators at the very top that light when you hit them, and don't reset until you restart the transport.

It might be best to share a small demo project and tell us exactly what to look at, where in the timline, and what you expect to remain stable over time or from one session to another.

[Larry T.]

3 minutes ago, David Baay said:

It's still not clear to me what you're saying. To me '"fader volume level" is the position of the fader control and has no direct relation to meter colors. And when you say "calculated audio level adjustment based on the fader level reading", this is the opposite of the way I would express it which would be "calculated fader position based on audio level reading (vs. desired reading). That 'reading' could be either an estimated peak or RMS level in the meter or the precise numeric peak value shown at the top of track meters and the bottom of console meters.

Also, aside from custom themes in CbB, Sonar's track and console meters don't really have what I would call a "yellow" range or a red range that you can be "in", only green below -6dBFS  and orange above it with red clipping indicators at the very top that light when you hit them, and don't reset until you restart the transport.

It might be best to share a small demo project and tell us exactly what to look at, where in the timline, and what you expect to remain stable over time or from one session to another.

Thank You David. I will see about uploading a video. 

 

[David Baay]

10 minutes ago, Larry T. said:

Thank You David. I will see about uploading a video. 

An actual project would be best.

[Amberwolf]

16 hours ago, Larry T. said:

The problem is inconsistent stability after making a Volume adjustment up or down in the volume adjustment line. 

I get different readings in the fader volume level, sometimes in the red, sometimes in the yellow, sometimes not red nor yellow after making a calculated audio level adjustment based on the fader level reading.

It's intermittent, impossible to predict, rendering the tool useless at that point in time.

Do you mean that you get a different output level on different passes of the track at the same point in the track? 

That would be strange, unless you have a plugin in the bin or on a clip's bin, that does modulation that isn't synced with the host or has some random character to it (which would mean a different output every time, and could be different levels by some amount depending on what the fx does). 

 

Or, do you mean that if you do the exact same automation for the exact same prefader audio level at some point in a track, you get a different output level at each of the two points?  But each point always remains the same output on each pass of playback?

 

Or do you mean something else? 

 

More detail / specifics is better.  

[msmcleod]

@Larry T.  maybe I'm not fully understanding the issue,  but what @Amberwolf says is correct:  adjusting/automating the volume level alters volume by that amount, not to that amount.

So the only time you'd see the db levels match between the volume fader and the meter readout is if the audio clip is at 0db.

In saying that, it could be a completely different issue - have you checked you've not engaged offset mode at any point?

[Larry T.]

14 hours ago, Amberwolf said:

Do you mean that you get a different output level on different passes of the track at the same point in the track? 

That would be strange, unless you have a plugin in the bin or on a clip's bin, that does modulation that isn't synced with the host or has some random character to it (which would mean a different output every time, and could be different levels by some amount depending on what the fx does). 

 

 

 

 

Yes, "get a different output level on different passes of the track at the same point in the track".

I'm no audio software engineer but what you said above sounds exactly like the problem I get with plug ins that do a lot of audio modulation. The track that I've been talking about is the Juno synth on Analog Lab V. This problem occurs on the Bell Pad synth as well which also uses a lot of audio modulation. 

I've resolved the problem by playing the area having the inconsistent output level issue numerous times and just keep lowering the Volume Automation node until the meter no longer peaks into the red, staying in the yellow and green.

I really like to max the output level to .5dB of red to get the most volume and clarity but based on your trouble shooting it would seem that with certain plug ins that is simply not possible due to the fact that modulations occur differently every time.

Thanks so much for your help and advice! 🎶🎵

[Bristol_Jonesey]

1 hour ago, Larry T. said:

I really like to max the output level to .5dB of red to get the most volume and clarity

in the realm of 24 bit recording this is extremely bad practice.

There is absolutely no need to drive any track this hard. This isn't like analog tape when you could push it and get a musical result (that fabled analog warmth).

Digital is much less forgiving. If it hits your converters at this level it will clip like crazy, and you will NOT like the result.

And you are also leaving yourself no headroom whatsoever for  mixing or mastering.

Best practice is to make sure no track peaks higher than about -9dB to -12dB

[Larry T.]

27 minutes ago, Bristol_Jonesey said:

in the realm of 24 bit recording this is extremely bad practice.

There is absolutely no need to drive any track this hard. This isn't like analog tape when you could push it and get a musical result (that fabled analog warmth).

Digital is much less forgiving. If it hits your converters at this level it will clip like crazy, and you will NOT like the result.

And you are also leaving yourself no headroom whatsoever for  mixing or mastering.

Best practice is to make sure no track peaks higher than about -9dB to -12dB

Thank You for that clarity. I only try to max out the certain loudest parts that require to be positioned front and center, so to speak, not every track. Cheers 🎶🎵

[Starship Krupa]

On 8/27/2025 at 6:30 PM, Larry T. said:

I'm really enjoying Sonar Platinum.

Trying not to sound pedantic here, but I think you're probably referring to the new Cakewalk Sonar?

The SONAR Platinum product was the version of pre-CbB SONAR bundled with a lot of plug-ins that was discontinued in 2017.

And thanks for asking the question and figuring it out. I have trouble getting my head around level automation and these answers help.

[David Baay]

1 hour ago, Larry T. said:

The track that I've been talking about is the Juno synth on Analog Lab V.

Yeah, all bets are off when it comes to level consistency from live synths.  Samplers/Romplers will generally be pretty consistent, depending on what internal FX are used, but anything that does 'real' synthesis or uses physical modeling is likely to be a lttle variable.

And I second Jonesey's comment about digital clipping. When I first read it, I thought you meant -.5dB and had just left off the minus sign. It's common mix to -.3 or -.5 or less to allow a little headroom for intersample peaks and/or conversion to MP3 which can result in a clipped peaks if the source is at 0dB.

[Larry T.]

1 minute ago, Starship Krupa said:

Trying not to sound pedantic here, but I think you're probably referring to the new Cakewalk Sonar?

The SONAR Platinum product was the version of pre-CbB SONAR bundled with a lot of plug-ins that was discontinued in 2017.

And thanks for asking the question and figuring it out. I have trouble getting my head around level automation and these answers help.

Yes, I was referring to the latest, paid version of Sonar. 

[Starship Krupa]

8 minutes ago, Larry T. said:

Yes, I was referring to the latest, paid version of Sonar. 

I'd love to see Cakewalk give it a surname like Sonar Pro, Sonar Premium, Sonar Full or whatever.

I like "Sonar FT" for the free tier version.

[Amberwolf]

6 hours ago, Larry T. said:

I'm no audio software engineer but what you said above sounds exactly like the problem I get with plug ins that do a lot of audio modulation. The track that I've been talking about is the Juno synth on Analog Lab V. This problem occurs on the Bell Pad synth as well which also uses a lot of audio modulation. 

With any synth that does any form of realtime generation of it's waveforms that are self-modulated (LFOs, arps, etc), or has any form of effects internal to it that are self-modulated (LFOs, etc) within the synth, the output will be different every single pass, and so the volume at any instant will be different.  

The exception to that is if it has a true sync of all of those generative things to the host clock, *and* that all those syncs are all turned on.   Many don't have them turned on by default because the sound may be more interesting when they can self-modulate against each other in what might seem a random way...which won't happen if the sync is on.

 

So, if you don't want the volumes / sound to change, you will need to freeze the synth, so that the output is now a wave file and will not change. 

 

If you still need to edit parts, then you can do what I usually do--freeze the synth once I have the basic idea down, then clone that entire audio track to a new track (fx, properties, automation, clips, events, routing, sends, etc all get copied).  Then unfreeze the synth, and mute all the midi clips that drive it that you have now got in the new track as audio.

When you find you need a part to change, mute those portions of the clips created in that audio track (the copy of the frozen audio), and do what you need to in the MIDI track that drives the synth.

 

I sometimes also do this for stuff where I need multiple different sounds with similar or the same MIDI driving it, from the same synth, rather than have multiple instances of it, especially in an already-cpu-heavy project.   I'll freeze the synth, clone the audio track, unfreeze, change the patch in the synth, do whatever to the MIDI, freeze that, clone it, unfreeze, rinse and repeat. 

 

An in-progress example of that is Don't Know Why You Stay

https://amberwolf.bandcamp.com/track/dont-know-why-you-stay

where all the rhythm synths are Z3TA+2, four different patches, mostly the same MIDI but the patches respond differently to it in some cases, some of them were edited, some parts muted, trimmed, etc., so different patches play at different times, or at different levels, octaves, etc.   

The bassline is one Z3TA+2 patch for the "thunk" part and one TAL Bassline patch for the deep smooth part. 

(The primary "Juno" lead was a rendered waveform from something else, so was the guitar-ish distortion synth).