Best Windows laptop for Sonar

[norfolkmastering]

I’m putting together a mobile recording set up.

Ideally, it would be great to find a fanless Windows laptop but it doesn’t look like they exist at the moment.

Next best is a low fan noise machine.

So if you have recently bought a laptop for use with Sonar and it’s super/almost super quiet, can you share the spec please.

many thanks 

[timboalogo]

I'm interested in this as well, unfortunately I have to reply to be able to follow the topic.

Timbo

[msmcleod]

Personally, I'd avoid laptops if you're worried about noise.  Most decently powered laptops sound like jet-engines when the fan starts. The new ARM64 based laptops maybe an exception to this - but even now Sonar now runs on ARM64, your choice of audio interface may be limited until manufacturers catch up with ARM64 drivers.

I've got a few mobile setups I've used over the years:

1. Dell Vostro 1700 (Intel Core 2 duo, Windows + Windows 7 32 bit + 4GB RAM), running SONAR Platinum 32 bit.  Yamaha 01X / i88X / Behringer ADA8000  interfaces.   No problems at all recording 24 tracks simultaneously.

2. MeLE quieter PC 2 (Intel J4125 4 core @ 2Ghz [turbo 2.7Ghz], 8GB RAM totally fan-less) - this is only slightly larger than a cassette tape, and has 2 x 4K HDMI + 4 x USB 3 ports.   Running Windows 11 64 bit and CbB / Sonar.  It's attached to the back of a 23" Samsung monitor. I've used this in two setups, recording 16 simultaneous tracks whilst playing back 32 tracks:
      (a) Scarlett 18i20 + Behringer ADA8200
      (b) Scarlett 18i8 + Fostex VC8 with 6 x JoeMeek MQ3 / TFPro P3, and 1 x TFPro P4 preamps.

My latest setup, which I'm yet to fully test is:

MeLE Quieter PC 4C (Intel N100 4 core, max turbo 3.4Ghz, 16GB RAM - fanless, same form-factor as Quiter PC2)  + Windows 11 64 bit, Sonar + RME DigiFace USB, 4 x Fostex VC8 connected to an Allen & Heath GL2400 32 track mixer.

The 4C had zero problems with 16 tracks recording/playback - I'm yet to try it with 32 tracks recording.  Running basic plugins on all tracks wasn't an issue with the 4C.

FWIW, a 16GB Ram MeLE Quieter PC 4C is currently £199 on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/MeLE-J4125-Computer-Portable-Ethernet/dp/B09TKM8VGT/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?th=1

[Bristol_Jonesey]

2 hours ago, msmcleod said:

Personally, I'd avoid laptops if you're worried about noise.  Most decently powered laptops sound like jet-engines when the fan starts. The new ARM64 based laptops maybe an exception to this - but even now Sonar now runs on ARM64, your choice of audio interface may be limited until manufacturers catch up with ARM64 drivers.

 

Yes, I agree.

I've got a Dell XPS i7 9710 and I only have to load Sonar - no project - and the fans spin up crazily

This was also recently fully serviced by a Dell technician and all the fans & boards were thoroughly cleaned.

[timboalogo]

Besides the quiet fans, is there a particular audio interface that would be best to use with a laptop?

Timbo

[AB99]

44 minutes ago, timboalogo said:

Besides the quiet fans, is there a particular audio interface that would be best to use with a laptop?

Timbo

What is your budget?  There are so many options.   And the type of ports on the laptop will help as well.  

As to the noise of a laptop, it depends on what you are doing.  For instance, if I am doing remote work, I use a laptop and let's say I am recording a choir - I could have 50 foot mic cables and plenty of distance to where the sound of the laptop does not reasonably show up in the recording (let alone the HVAC system being picked up.)

But if this is a home studio, a desktop makes more sense and is likely to provide better performance all around for the money.  (In my situation, I even have the desktop in another room, with monitor cables, mouse cable and keyboard cable going into the studio space.  That way I could careless how loud the fans are, have a lot of them running and have a powerful CPU going without high temps.

There are so many factors at play here.

 

[Alan Tubbs]

Jim’s Purrfect audio Studio Cat does a laptop.  But even it comes with warnings.  His desktop is silent.

[msmcleod]

I think in the end, without knowing exactly what the mobile setup is meant to achieve, there's no real way of recommending anything.

e.g. - are you just recording?  Do you need to record through VST's (guitar sims etc)?  Do you need to mix on it?

What I do know is:

• Recording 16 simultaneous tracks even through a USB 2 interface uses very little RAM/CPU.  I was recording 16 simultaneous tracks (24bit 48Khz) on a P166 with 256MB RAM on to E-IDE HDD's back in the 90's.
• As soon as you start adding VST's, you're going to need more CPU power.  For 16 tracks using stock FX plugins, and maybe one or two lightweight VSTi's, anything over 2.6Ghz will probably cope without issue.  A 3.4Ghz processor will definitely be fine.
• Any laptop will be noisy due to the fan.  Mid to high gaming laptops do pretty well as DAW machines as they're pretty powerful, but the noise may be a real issue unless you're only using it for close-mic'd drums.  For an acoustic guitar - forget it.
• Laptops may seem handy and portable due to their size, but really, a small fan-less PC connected to the back of a 19" or 23" monitor is nothing really compared to the golf-caddy size bags for your mic stands, and your boxes of mic-cables / mics / DI boxes etc.  My 23" monitor with the PC attached at the back lies quite comfortably on top of the cables inside its plastic case.

 

 

[norfolkmastering]

The location recording is a bit of a mixed bag;

Last week I recorded a folk-punk group in the pianists front room.  Mixture of acoustic and electric instruments.  Yes I was in the front room too!

I had a mixture of DI and mic'd sources.  Some percussion but no drum kit!

Typically no more than 8 to 10 sources.

Some fan noise was okay in that situation but if it had been an all acoustic folk group (which I've done as well) then a laptop fan would have been a problem.

Occasionally it's possible to get the recording gear set up in a different room but it makes comms difficult when there is so much going on.  I usually have to do a fair amount of 'herding sheep' as is often the way with musicians (surely not??)

I would never use VST type effects when recording, so its just getting the audio recorded.  If a singer must have a little reverb on their voice then I would do that using the DSP in the audio interface, so no load on the computer.

I like the idea of the MeLE Quieter PC 4C.  Am I right that it can mount to the back of a monitor via the VESA system?

And does it have an internal SSD or do you need to use a USB connected hard drive?

[msmcleod]

51 minutes ago, norfolkmastering said:

I like the idea of the MeLE Quieter PC 4C.  Am I right that it can mount to the back of a monitor via the VESA system?

And does it have an internal SSD or do you need to use a USB connected hard drive?

The MeLE has both an internal SSD drive, and optionally an internal flash drive - it also has a micro SD socket for an additional storage.  My 4C has a 256GB internal SSD (C drive), an internal 256GB flash drive (D drive), and a 512GB micro SD card inserted.

It attaches to a VESA mount via a supplied bracket.  I've gone one step further, and used a VESA extension plate as well so I can mount it to a VESA mount on the wall whilst still having the 4C attached  (this is actually a 2C, but it's exactly the same size):

It's worth mentioning that the 4C's case is also its heatsink - and it does get quite hot... not enough to burn you, but certainly as hot as a radiator.  This is by design.

Oh, and my recording tests were actually done to an external SSD connected via USB 3.

Typically, I use it with this setup:



All of the Joemeek/TFPro preamps go to into the VC-8, which is connected to the 18i8 via ADAT.   The 18i8 has another 4 line inputs on the back, giving me a total of 16 inputs.

[msmcleod]

1 hour ago, norfolkmastering said:

I would never use VST type effects when recording, so its just getting the audio recorded.  If a singer must have a little reverb on their voice then I would do that using the DSP in the audio interface, so no load on the computer.

You might want to consider a small 4 channel mixer with built-in effects for the vocalist:

- vocal mic goes into the mixer
- output to the DAW is either by the insert send, or an FX send on that channel.
- backing track output from the DAW goes in to inputs 3 & 4.
- vocalist plugs their headphones into the mixer

The only downside is, you're then at the mercy of the quality of the mixer pre-amps... but I guess you could go directly into the audio interface, then take a direct out from the audio interface into the mixer.  This should have zero latency, and the vocalist can play with the backing / vocal balance to their heart's content without ever affecting what you're recording.

All of my JoeMeek/TFPro pre-amps have two line outs, so I've got a spare output on each one for that kind of thing.

[AB99]

Of course, for location recording, one can also record to a field recorder, like a sonosax, nagra,  sound devices, Tascam hs-p82 which I own, etc., then load the files into a Daw for further processing and mixing.  Many field recorders are super quiet.

[msmcleod]

Just now, AB99 said:

Of course, for location recording, one can also record to a field recorder, like a sonosax, nagra,  sound devices, Tascam hs-p82 which I own, etc., then load the files into a Daw for further processing and mixing.  Many field recorders are super quiet.

Actually, I was gonna say... if I was to do it all again, I'd just go for a Tascam Model 2400.  This gives me the choice of using a DAW or not, and also the option of committing EQ changes while recording (which the old Model 24 didn't do - hence my current setup).

[norfolkmastering]

17 hours ago, msmcleod said:

Actually, I was gonna say... if I was to do it all again, I'd just go for a Tascam Model 2400.  This gives me the choice of using a DAW or not, and also the option of committing EQ changes while recording (which the old Model 24 didn't do - hence my current setup).

Yes the Tascam Model 2400 ticks a lot of boxes.  The lack of metering per channel alongside the faders is for me the biggest issue.  Yes you can use tiny onboard screen (not really!) or the app, but nothing beats channel metering next to the faders when you are trying to keep an eye on recording levels.

Nevertheless, food for thought! 

Are there any other mixer based contenders apart from the Model 24 which can record to an SDXC card?

[msmcleod]

4 hours ago, norfolkmastering said:

Yes the Tascam Model 2400 ticks a lot of boxes.  The lack of metering per channel alongside the faders is for me the biggest issue.  Yes you can use tiny onboard screen (not really!) or the app, but nothing beats channel metering next to the faders when you are trying to keep an eye on recording levels.

Nevertheless, food for thought! 

Are there any other mixer based contenders apart from the Model 24 which can record to an SDXC card?

The only other one I came across is the Zoom Livetrak L20.  This is a digital mixer though, but metering is much better.  The plus for the L20 is the 6 separate headphone mixes and the fact you can save/recall complete scenes.

There's also the Soundcraft Signature 22 MTK, but there's no SD card recording on that one, and all recording captured pre EQ/Fader.

I guess there's also the Tascam DP-24 / DP-32... but they're prosumer rather than pro devices, and limited to recording 8 tracks at a time.  They also have a weird track layout making the DP-24 actually slightly better than the DP-32 if you're recording mono sources.

In my studio I use an Allen and Heath Mix Wizard WZ3, connected to 2 x Fostex VC-8's via its 16 direct outs.  Metering is pretty poor,  but sound-wise it's excellent.  It is rack mountable, but it's damn heavy, and obviously there's the hassle of looms,  and the extra rack containing the VC-8 ADAT ADC's and audio interface.

 

[norfolkmastering]

How about the Soundcraft Ui24R?  I realise you are mixing on a tablet but if it's mostly about setting record levels then maybe it has some advantages.  It would also make monitoring in another room a lot simpler.

[msmcleod]

18 hours ago, norfolkmastering said:

How about the Soundcraft Ui24R?  I realise you are mixing on a tablet but if it's mostly about setting record levels then maybe it has some advantages.  It would also make monitoring in another room a lot simpler.

Looks like a good choice.  Also take a look at the Zoom LiveTrak L-20R, which does a similar job and is around £200 cheaper.  The thing that stands out for me on the Zoom is the 6 independent headphone mixes, which may remove the need for separate headphone amps and saves the complexity of setting up separate headphone mixes in the DAW.

The choice here however maybe the quality of the pre-amps.  The quality of modern Zoom preamps is streets ahead compared to the R16/R24 days, however I suspect the Studer designed pre-amps on the Soundcraft may be better.  In saying that, while Zoom build quality/reliability has steadily improved over the years, Soundcraft seems to be moving the other way - at least one user on this forum has had a Soundcraft MTK die on them. 

I guess for rack-mounted gear, this may be less of a concern - but even so, If I opted for either of these, I'd build myself a separate XLR input panel so that it would take the wear of constant plugging in and out, rather than the unit itself.  Unfortunately a lot of these modern devices have the sockets mounted directly on the circuit-board, and all it takes is a slightly loose mounting screw for the board to start feeling the strain.

As a completely different alternative, maybe take a look at the RME Digiface USB.  It has 4 ADAT input / output ports, and a stereo TRS output for headphones/speakers.  This plus an ADAT interface such as a Behringer ADA8200 or Focusrite Octopre for each ADAT port will give you up to 32 inputs and 32 outputs.  The advantage here is you can choose which preamps you want, and upgrade/expand as required - and of course RME drivers are arguably the best in the industry.