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HELP!!! SOS!!! - Can Not Export in latest Sonar - SOS !!! HELP!!!

minminmusic

By minminmusic
in Cakewalk Sonar

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minminmusic

minminmusic

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Working on a HUGE project for my bands first album in over 15 years.

I have a paid membership with Sonar...but also was using CbB. Actually, preferred to work in CbB as I found the graphics a little easier on my eyes. While having both co-currently, I've kept the versions up to date but generally don't use Sonar but now my hand's being forced.

Here's the problem...

I have 10 projects that work perfectly of CbB. Playback and render.

Those same projects will playback fine within Sonar but I cannot for the life of me get them to Export. They did with a previous version...but no longer do and I'm not sure when it broke. It flushes the plug-ins and then the meter never moves and Sonar's frozen. In addition...I tried to Bounce to Track internally and that behaves the same way.

I've uninstalled Sonar and reinstalled Sonar and that did not help. I suspect it might be a plugin but I've spent hours trying to see where the chokepoint is if any one particular plug-in. I've turned off FX on all the busses and get can it to render. I slowly turn them back on and up to a point, I can get it to render but there's a certain point where it seems to be increasingly hard to determine if it's a bug...or a plug-in. Again...CbB has NO problem exporting the identical project.

I'm in a panic mode now as what happens tomorrow?

Any thoughts/suggestions?

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Noel Borthwick

Noel Borthwick

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CbB will soon stop accepting new activating but will not stop working tomorrow so dont worry,
Regarding the export its almost surely some plugin blocking the export. Have you tried turning off flushing plugin buffers? 
If Sonar appears hung then capture a dump file and send me a link. There are lots of notes in the FAQ on how to capture a minidump from a hung process.

Try setting this value to 0 and retest.

image.png

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minminmusic

minminmusic

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Ok...so first. Did as msmcleod suggested. Bounce buffer is at Playback size. Rear-time audio render did work (had two major glitch pops though). 

Next pass...made the adjustment that Noel suggested and unchecked Real-Time and it still crapped out. I do have a mini-dump from earlier today when I was checking to see if it also was having a problem Exporting straight to MP3...and that crashed with a mini dump. Let me see I can capture one from outputting the wave.

Would changing the Bounce buffer from Playback size to 20-50 have much of an appreciable difference?

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minminmusic

minminmusic

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Noel...uploading those to my Google Drive now. Actually got two...one from Task Manager...the second, I clicked yes on the above message, got it again and clicked yes and it crashed creating a dmp file. uploading both. Will take a bit. Do you have a particular email you'd like me to use for this?

Appreciate everyone's help so far. Trying not to panic.

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Noel Borthwick

Noel Borthwick

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Holy crap thats a lot of plugins. The dump shows a hang that is most likely being caused by one or more of the plugins.

Do you have UAD2 (hardware) plugins also in this project? I would definitely disable plugin load balancing and retest. 
Plugin load balancing requires well behaved plugins since it will parallelize processing at the plugin level. So if there is even a remote chance of the plugin poor thread safety it will show up. 

This is a partial list of the plugins involved in the dump. I got tired of scrolling through...

c:\program files\common files\VST3\Nuro Audio\Xrider.vst3\Contents\x86_64-win\

Xvox Pro.vst3

Cradle The God Particle.vst3

Supernova.vst3

P821 MDN Tape.vst3

soothe2_x64.vst3
 

THR VoxGuru.vst3
Tape MELLO-FI.vst3

Filterstep_64.vst3

VSX.vst3

StereoLab.vst3

MoonEcho.vst3

uaudio_sound_city_studios.x64.dll

uaudio_topline_vocal_suite.x64.dll
uaudio_ua_1176_rev_a.x64.dll

LIMITER.vst3
 


 

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minminmusic

minminmusic

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Slate is on it's own buss running out to one of my RME outs, not the master.

Noel...DSP Loadlock is unchecked but Extra Buffering is checked on the UA Control Panel. Is that wrong?

Question is...why would the same project file export correctly in CbB and only within Sonar if Bounced Down in Real Time but not as a fast render?

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David Baay

David Baay

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5 hours ago, minminmusic said:

Did as msmcleod suggested. Bounce buffer is at Playback size. Rear-time audio render did work (had two major glitch pops though). 

Anything real-time  will always use the rea;-time ASIO buffer size, and bouncing will also, ubless overridden but a non-zero Bounce Buffer setting. I have run mine at 20 for years. If theory some rendeirng operaiton might be more efficient iwth larger buffers, but the main reason I raised it is that some plugins (especially soft synths) can misbehave when fast-bouncing with a very small buffer like 64 samples which I often use in real-time because I need low latency for input monitoring and my projects are mostly light enough that I can get away with it.

 

5 hours ago, minminmusic said:

I was checking to see if it also was having a problem Exporting straight to MP3...and that crashed with a mini dump.

Fast-bounce direct to MP3 is not recommended because the encoding generally can't keep up with the rendering. It shouldn't crash but you can get failures and/or bad audio.

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minminmusic

minminmusic

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Ok...through a ton of trial and error...it looks like it's PM's P821 MDN Tape plug-in. I have it running on all of my busses but for some reason, when it's on the vocal buss and the backing vox buss is when it stalls in Sonar. It does not do this in CbB.

Would it have anything to do with how Sonar now has that Oversampling drop down menu in the plug-ins whereas CbB does not? That seems to be the only variable I can see...I've tried this on two different projects that had the same buss configuration/plug-in order. With that plug-in off in Sonar...they both render. With them on...they hang.

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minminmusic

minminmusic

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I think that plug-in is part of the issue.

Are there any pluses that might stabilize the situation by rebuilding the plug-in order? For testing, I had added an extra buss next to my main, moved all the plug-ins in the same order over the to the extra buss and bypassed them all. One-by-one...I rebuilt it by CTRL dragging the plug-in over to the main vocal, activating it...the exporting a small chunk. If that worked, I saved and moved on to the next one. Now...this test file I did it in seems more stable and I can get it to render or not render based on those two P821 MDN Tapes being either on or off. The other projects where I haven't rebuilt seem less repeatable hence my wonder.

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Noel Borthwick

Noel Borthwick

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I'm glad you were able to root cause it through a process of elimination. In a project that huge that's the only way. 

It's difficult for me to answer why this might be ok in cbb and not sonar definitively. Due to sonars optimizations it processes audio much faster. If the MDN tape plug-in has a latent thread safety problem, then it's far more likely to be exposed in sonar for this reason. You are simply getting lucky in cbb with the timing because it's slower. 

Changing the bussing structure can change order of processing and may or may not impact the processing. If you can build a small project that repros the hang send it to me and I can try see if I can diagnose further.

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Noel Borthwick

Noel Borthwick

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9 hours ago, David Baay said:

 

15 hours ago, minminmusic said:

I was checking to see if it also was having a problem Exporting straight to MP3...and that crashed with a mini dump.

Fast-bounce direct to MP3 is not recommended because the encoding generally can't keep up with the rendering. It shouldn't crash but you can get failures and/or bad audio.

Please send me the dump file. 
Fast bounce should have no bearing on MP3 export. There is nothing that it needs to keep up with, since the MP3 exporter is just using LAME which isn’t asynchronous. It can be run as fast as it can encode - it is self throttling as a result.

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