Opening BUN changes Multi in hardware Sampler

[gmp]

I have a client that's sending me BUN files and when I open it, it sends a midi message to my Akai S3000XL hardware sampler and it changes the preset for midi channel 1 and 2 to a different one. It leaves all the rest of the midi channel presets the same. I have to reload the Multi preset again to fix it. The midi out o my Motu goes to the Akai. Does anyone have a clue why this is happening? I don't see any changes in the settings for the Akai that will fix it, unless I'm missing something.

[John Vere]

Check the System Exclusive and event list for midi commands 

Edited Thursday at 03:58 PM by John Vere

[gmp]

1 hour ago, John Vere said:

Check the System Exclusive and event list for midi commands 

I checked CbB Preferences and didn't see anything like that. How do I do what you asked?

[User 905133]

Assuming you have not excluded the Sysex View intentionally or unintentionally from your current Workspace (which could be "None" if you use that) try Menu Bar > Views > Sysx View** then look at the Auto Send option.

 

**If you don't see this  under Views, you might be using a Workspace that excludes the Sysx View.

As for the Event List, try Menu Bar > Views > Event List to find possible sysex commands in tracks.  By contrast the Sysex View shows Sysex Banks, some of which might be set to Auto Send.

 

Edited Thursday at 05:45 PM by User 905133
(2) added an image with a basic Sysex command to show the Auto Send check mark; (1) ** added / clarification

[gmp]

I now have Sysx View in my Workspace. When I open it, under Settings, Auto Send On/Off is grayed out. If I can get this to work, maybe I can fix the saved problem song when I reopen it by changing the Auto Send to Off. I opened one of the problem songs as usual it changes my Multi setting for midi channel 1+2 for my Akai, but under the SysX view it's all blank

Under Preferences File / Advanced I have checked "Ask before sending Sysx. I would think that alone would prevent this from happening

Thanks for helping, this is an area I've never ventured in

[User 905133]

40 minutes ago, gmp said:

I now have Sysx View in my Workspace. When I open it, under Settings, Auto Send On/Off is grayed out. If I can get this to work . . . .

It is greyed out because it is a setting for each individual bank.  To test create a Test Bank with F0 F7 inside. 

40 minutes ago, gmp said:

Under Preferences File / Advanced I have checked "Ask before sending Sysx. I would think that alone would prevent this from happening

Hmmm.  Testing now with my F0 F7 test command set to auto.

UPDATE:  Thanks for mentioning that checkbox.  I had it turned off because over the past few years I have gone into old hardware based projects and tried turning them into soft synth version and I forgot about it!

So, I re-saved the project with that box checked and re-loaded the project:

 So, at least on my PC that preference does do what we expect it to.

Edited Thursday at 06:36 PM by User 905133
confirmed that the preferences checkbox in question worked on my PC

[User 905133]

On 6/17/2025 at 5:54 PM, gmp said:

I have a client that's sending me BUN files and when I open it, it sends a midi message to my Akai S3000XL hardware sampler and it changes the preset for midi channel 1 and 2 to a different one. It leaves all the rest of the midi channel presets the same. I have to reload the Multi preset again to fix it. 

Getting back to diagnosing the original issue, I don't have an Akai sampler, but I do have E-Mu gear which uses Multis to set channel information, including presets.  I know that's not much help, but perhaps the Akais do something similar. I became sort of an intermediate expert on a few aspects of using the E-Mu.  Fortunately, there was an abundance of documentation, including sysex data communication.

That being said I am wondering what the message is when you say "it sends a midi message."  

ADDENDUM: I found a document online, "S2000/S3000XL/S3200XL MIDI System Exclusive Extensions" which includes the following: 

Quote

Multi Mode

This is a major change over the S3000 family, intended to help with multi-timbral operation. Sixteen multi parts are provided. Each part contains a parameter to point to a convention "program" and another parameter to associate this part with a MIDI channel. By default, multi part 1 is associated with MIDI channel 1, part 2 with channel 2 etc., but this need not be the case. A multi part contains a number of other parameters (PRIORT, PLAYLO, PLAYHI, OUTPUT, STEREO, PANPOS, VOSCL, TRANSPOSE) similar to those found in programs which override their corresponding parameters in the associated programs.

Multi parts numbers would be arbitrary if it were not for one point. Incoming MIDI program change commands can be used to assign programs to multi parts. In this case, the MIDI channel number specified by the MIDI program change command is used to specify a multi part number, irrespective of the MIDI channel associated with that part. To avoid confusion, it is advisable that programs in memory be assigned unique program numbers.

Not sure this is related to your issue, but if the channel preset changes are not being sent by CbB itself (either sysex or direct program changes), maybe there is something that tells the Akai to invoke something which sets the presets on those channels.

OR, since you observed, "I have to reload the Multi preset again to fix it," perhaps CbB is not sending something to load the Multi.  Or maybe it's getting lost in the data flow.

Again, I have no experience with Akais, but maybe this will help.

Edited Thursday at 07:13 PM by User 905133
ADDENDUM added based on Akai documentation

[gmp]

Since I have that box checked in preferences and never get the notice, maybe this isn't SysX data. When I first load his bun in, it changes my Akai Multi. I then save the Bun as a CWP file and every time I load this CWP in it changes my Akai Multi. His piano tracks are midi ch 1+2 and midi ch 1+2 are the only ones affected in my Akai Multi.  If I delete his piano midi tracks then that solves the problem.

What's really strange is I copy his midi data from his bad midi track to my better sounding piano sound and I don't have to delete my piano midi track to fix this, only his original piano midi tracks.

My track control manager is set to Custom with my preferences, but if I change it to ALL I still don't see anything in the midi track that could explain this and if I select the problem midi track and choose View / Event data all he has is Notes, no Sysx or patch change data or anything except Notes

Strange but at least I found a workaround

[mettelus]

On 6/17/2025 at 5:54 PM, gmp said:

I have a client that's sending me BUN files and when I open it [...]

Couple quick questions for this. 1) Is the other person using the a controller also, and if so, on which tracks? 2) Are the presets you see changing coming up as if they were "default" inserts (i.e., if you were creating a track from scratch)?

When multiple people are accessing the same file, Cakewalk tries to keep track of things; but if what it expects to see is not there, it will do its "best guess." If that file was created (or modified) with another controller (or VSTs, or even software version), there may be mismatches in how that is interpreted on each system. If you change those back to what you expect, save the project, then close and reopen it are your changes preserved? When you send that back to them, are they seeing the same issue?

This may not have anything to do with your system or setup, but the fact that another has touched that file before you got it back.

Edited Thursday at 07:47 PM by mettelus

[gmp]

I finally see what's going on. On his piano tracks he does have a bank and preset set, so if I change the bank and patch to none on the piano tracks and save the file, that fixes it. 

Thanks everyone f helping me solve this mystery