Finding meaning in reversed melodies and songs, rather than reversed lyrics

[Transcended Dimensions]

There’s a technique known as “retrograde,” which would be reversing the series of notes in a melody or song.  Composers use this technique many times.  An example of a composer who used this technique would be Koji Kondo (the composer for famous video games, such as the Legend of Zelda, Super Mario, etc.).  A portion of his Ballad of the Goddess theme would be a retrograded portion of his Zelda’s Lullaby theme.  If utilizing this technique just resulted in meaningless, random, nonsensical, rubbish melodies, then Koji wouldn’t have used it.  This says that reversed melodies aren’t meaningless rubbish.  I, myself, reverse melodies and songs, and draw the conclusion as to what emotion/scenes are being conveyed.  I've shared a few melodies and songs to others that I've reversed, and these people heard them as meaningless rubbish. 

But, perhaps these reversed melodies and songs do express the emotion/scenes I described,  and that the reason why people hear them as meaningless rubbish is because reversing a melody or song isn’t enough to convey something meaningful to the audience.  Something more is needed to convey their meaning.   So, I might be the one who’s able to hear them as meaningful because that’s my meaningful vision in regards to them.  I must find a way to somehow convey that vision to the audience.  I’m quite sure if Koji simply reversed a portion of his Zelda’s Lullaby theme, that the audience would hear it as meaningless rubbish. 

So, Koji had a meaningful vision in regards to a portion of Zelda’s Lullaby he reversed, and he somehow conveyed that vision to the audience.  That’s the reason why so many people love that retrograded portion, and don’t think it’s meaningless rubbish.  Now, I've taken the song "Love Is A Battlefield" by Pat Benatar and reversed it.  When people listen to reversed songs, they often try to find meaningful words or sentences in the reversed lyrics when they listen to them.  But, I don’t do that.  I listen to the reversed series of notes, whether they be played by an instrument or sung, and try to find meaning in it.  These are the scenes I envision in regards to this reversed song.  So, I'll share this reversed song, and describe the scenes: 

https://youtu.be/Nh3sDkLsjqw

Starting from 0:02-0:14 in this video, this would just be the intro.  Then, from 0:15-0:31, this conveys something settled.  It would be like something slowly creeping up.  Think of a person standing there, and something's about to happen.  It doesn't sound cinematic, like something you'd hear in a movie though.  It's different than that.  Then, starting from 0:32, this is a moment of shock where the person looks, and notices some demonic creature about to grab him.  The tension rises as the song leads into the chorus, starting from 0:40-1:17.  The chorus conveys something dramatic and horrific, as the person is being dragged to hell, screaming. 

Again, in regards to the scenes I'm describing, don't think of anything cinematic because the emotion this reversed song conveys is entirely different than the type of emotion conveyed by cinematic music.   Anyway, the reversed chorus of this song conveys even more dramatic horror than famous horror music.  It's in a league of its own.  Pat Benatar yells while she's singing the chorus, and that really adds to the dramatic horror.  Then, from 1:17-2:02, it sounds settled and ominous.  Then, from 2:03-2:36, it sounds like something evil is brewing.  That's all the scenes I'll describe of this song because you get the idea. 

Edited November 19, 2019 by Transcended Dimensions

[user 905133]

1 hour ago, Transcended Dimensions said:

[1] There’s a technique known as “retrograde,” which would be reversing the series of notes in a melody or song. 

[2] .  .  .  perhaps these reversed melodies and songs do express the emotion/scenes I described,  and that the reason why people hear them as meaningless rubbish is because reversing a melody or song isn’t enough to convey something meaningful to the audience.  Something more is needed to convey their meaning.   So, I might be the one who’s able to hear them as meaningful because that’s my meaningful vision in regards to them.  I must find a way to somehow convey that vision to the audience. 

[3] So, Koji had a meaningful vision in regards to a portion of Zelda’s Lullaby he reversed, and he somehow conveyed that vision to the audience. 

[4] Now, I've taken the song "Love Is A Battlefield" by Pat Benatar and reversed it.  . . . I listen to the reversed series of notes, whether they be played by an instrument or sung, and try to find meaning in it. 

The subject of musical meaning and the composer's intentions in communicating meaning through music is a passion for me. In terms of historical writings and research from many particular perspectives, there is a lot out there (in many diverse fields of interest).  Perhaps you are already familiar with some of what's out there.  If not, and if you are interested  in these topics for more than a casual discussion, I would encourage you to continue to explore the subject with a passion.

As for me, some of "the literature" looks for meaning within music (from (a) microscopic to (b) macroscopic perspectives; for example from (a) the alleged meaning in intervals, frequency ratios, timbre, harmonics, etc. (microscopic) to (b ) meaning as based on or derived from large-scale things, such as culture, medium of communication, broad contexts, etc. (macroscopic)

For me (and I recognize everyone is different and has different thoughts on any given subject), meaning is something that humans (as individuals and groups of individuals from like-minded, relatively homogeneous groups--such as interest groups and "sub-cultures" to diverse, heterogeneous groups--such as "society") ascribe to different aspects of experience.

For example, people who like certain types/genres of music (traditional electronic music, ambient music, orchestral music, video game music, acid rock, etc.) might have a wider variety of experiences with regard to those favored genres and therefore a wider range of "meanings" (from descriptive/denotative meaning to evaluative/connotative meaning) than people who are unfamiliar with (or who dislike) those genres.

Someone who thinks of "electronic music" as dance music might hear "Poème électronique" and find "no meaning" in it (or maybe think its "just a bunch of sounds strung together," but certainly not "electronic music." On the other hand, someone else with a background in "traditional electronic music" might hear different pieces of dance-oriented "electronic music" and think "It's all the same."

I think your observations about comparing different versions of musical elements (such as reversing the order of notes, reversing a performance, etc.) and your speculations about the change in meaning based on the alterations are interesting. I am not sure this is a good forum for a "philosophical discussion" of this topic.  I chose to share some thoughts here since (1) you seem interested in the broader subject, (2) others might also be interested, (3) you seem to be leaning in the direction of meaning as being ascribed to music as opposed to meaning being inherent in music and the distinction might be of use in sorting through "the literature" if you (or others) are interested, etc.

Just some "food for thought" depending on your personal dietary preferences (a la what's music to someone might be "just noise" to someone else).

 

Edited November 19, 2019 by User 905133
to correct typos

[paulo]

? ygrene ylloj ylloc

[Mesh]

[Mesh]

13 minutes ago, paulo said:

? ygrene ylloj ylloc

!oluaP yromem ruoy htiw desserpmi m'I

[paulo]

23 hours ago, Mesh said:

!oluaP yromem ruoy htiw desserpmi m'I

.tegrof ot drah era sgniht emoS

[craigb]

Subtle intellectual nuances entertain Paulo!

[Wibbles]

 

[paulo]

18 hours ago, craigb said:

Subtle intellectual nuances entertain Paulo!

Some Innuendos Need Extensive Perseverance

[Michael A.D.]

There's a WONDERFUL book called "Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" that discusses the concepts of logic, order, symmetry, inversions, etc in music, art and literature.    And it does so in a very entertaining way! 

It's the kind of book that you can pick it up, read just a few pages, then come back to it in a few days for more insights.   Great stuff to ponder!

Check it out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel,_Escher,_Bach

[Gswitz]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO_Tofu

 

 

[Bapu]

On 11/21/2019 at 12:33 PM, paulo said:

Some Innuendos Need Extensive Perseverance

Bollocks