Track Automation II Clip Automation (and Template stuff)

[Astraios]

Hello friends 😃

can someone please help me out and explain the difference between Clip Automation and Track Automation? See photo:

I'm asking because Templates are supposed to also handle automation data. That's what the documentation says. A template probably only handles Track Automation... I haven't been able to integrate the automation data assigned to Z3TA+2 into a template.

 

Edited Saturday at 01:38 PM by Astraios

[dougalex]

Maybe I am not understanding the question, but:

Clip Automation: Only affects individual clips (Volume shows as red envelope in Audio clips, Velocity shows as violet in Midi clips)
Track Automation: Affects all clips in track (and is AFTER any existing Clip Automation)

[Bristol_Jonesey]

Clip automation will only work if applied to a clip in a track.

It's name is a bit of a giveaway.

[Astraios]

Sonar Manual

Okay, so if I create 10 envelopes for a soft synth and then save a template from it, surely the automation data should be transferred...? What about remote data? Are envelopes only transferred if they are drawn with nodes? Questions, questions, questions.

 

Edited Saturday at 06:25 PM by Astraios

[dougalex]

2 hours ago, Astraios said:

Sonar Manual

Are you saying you saved a template and it did not save the Automation that you wanted to include in the template?

[dougalex]

2 hours ago, Astraios said:

Okay, so if I create 10 envelopes for a soft synth and then save a template from it, surely the automation data should be transferred...? What about remote data? Are envelopes only transferred if they are drawn with nodes?

Summary from Perplexity.ai:
To ensure your Automation data is included in templates:
Draw or record automation envelopes explicitly in the tracks.
Verify that all desired automation lanes are visible and properly configured before saving the project as a template.

More:

In Cakewalk Sonar, when you save a project as a template, automation data, including envelopes, can be transferred. However, there are some nuances:

Automation Envelopes:

Automation envelopes that are drawn with nodes (manually or through automation recording) are saved in the template. This includes volume, pan, and parameter changes for soft synths or effects.

If the envelopes are not explicitly drawn or recorded (e.g., they exist only as remote control data or MIDI CC messages), they might not be saved as part of the template unless converted into visible automation lanes.

Remote Data:

Remote data (e.g., MIDI CC messages sent from external controllers) is not directly saved in the template unless it is recorded into a track or converted into automation envelopes.

If you are using a controller like the Novation ReMOTE SL or similar, you would need to save its configuration separately as a MIDI remote template or SysEx dump, as described in guides for controllers24.

Template Behavior:

Templates save all project parameters and settings that are part of the project file, including automation envelopes with nodes. However, dynamic data like live controller input needs to be recorded or explicitly added as an envelope to persist in the template.

Envelopes created with nodes (manually drawn or recorded) are saved in templates and projects, ensuring automation data is transferred. However, live remote data (e.g., MIDI CC messages) must be recorded into tracks or converted into visible automation envelopes for persistence in templates

Edited Saturday at 09:00 PM by dougalex

[Astraios]

Yes, exactly, that's my experience. And besides, if you separate the instrument track into audio and MIDI, things look different again. I think my second explanation isn't far from the truth. The conceptual difference between track automation and clip automation makes sense. However, when you consider that you can also change individual elements in different tracks in the Synth Rack, things get really complicated..

 

.

[dougalex]

7 minutes ago, Astraios said:

However, when you consider that you can also change individual elements in different tracks in the Synth Rack, things get really complicated..

If the Template is not giving you want you expect, can you just save it as a regular project? (Then save as new name to avoid changing your basic reusable project)?

[Astraios]

Oh, yes, it's nice how the AI describes it. I thought so too, but the reality, as it turns out, is quite different.

Unfortunately, no envelope is included in the template and therefore no remote data

[dougalex]

1 hour ago, Astraios said:

Unfortunately, no envelope is included in the template and therefore no remote data

As test, I saved a template with envelopes and then opened the template. Seems like I have the envelope data saved with template:

[Astraios]

First of all, thank you very much for your efforts regarding my problem. Let me tell you: I started a very simple, empty project. It only contains the Z3TA+2 soft synth and the Kickstart plugin. I created four envelopes for the synth and one for the plugin, plus a MIDI arp segment in the clip. So it's very simple and not complex, right? Then I saved it as a template. Believe it or not, not a single envelope is copied over when I insert the template into an existing project... This is what it looks like!

[dougalex]

44 minutes ago, Astraios said:

insert the template into an existing project

insert the template into an existing project? I think you open a template, not "insert the template into an existing project".
Maybe I totally misunderstood what you are doing. Maybe you have to make a short video to fully demonstrate the issue. 

[Astraios]

ha, ha what we are talking about...?

-- insert the template into an existing project --  I thought thats what template is all about 🧐

 

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Okay, I see it - a softsynth with assigned parameters (envelopes) and remote settings cannot be exported from one project to another

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Edited Sunday at 10:18 PM by Astraios

[Bristol_Jonesey]

Don't confuse TRACK templates with PROJECT templates.

[dougalex]

Ah yes, I see the confusion is: Project template vs track template
I think the screenshot from the manual that you posted was about project templates, so I thought you were talking about project templates. 

[Astraios]

Oh, what a mess.... So I tried a few of my older *.cwx (template) files, and tadaa! They worked perfectly. The Z3TA Synth Template doesn't seem to work, hmm, weird. In any case, I've now realized the difference between Track and Project Templates and Clip and Track Automation. The fact is, however, that VST-Synth Parameters, Envelopes, and associated Remote Settings aren't carried over into a Track Template.  Thx for helping 

Edited yesterday at 03:07 PM by Astraios
add info

[Amberwolf]

FWIW, having seen this thread ongoing the last day or so, it reminded me of track templates (which I don't normally use), as a way to save time rebuilding a project that has somehow become damaged https://discuss.cakewalk.com/topic/84580-the-next-breath-energetic-short/?do=findComment&comment=592402  and had to start over with a new project file, copying and pasting all the data.

So because this thread reminded me of them I exported track templates from the broken file (which included the bussing, fx, routing, etc, thankfully), but as you note none of the automation went with them (I'm not using a modern version, so if it's supposed to work now it probably wasn't a feature then).  Still saved me many hours of work.

The data including automation I copy/pasted, but had to reassign all the envelopes (other than track volume) as they all became orphaned, but that was all minor work of a few hours compared to what it would've been to rebuilding the whole thing manually. 

 

So, thanks for this thread, even if it's for a totally different reason than it was for.  

 

[Astraios]

Thanks, Amberwolf, for the comment. Yes, at some point you know what this and that is and how it works, but after a few years everything gets mixed up in the brain again. I don't know if a modern fighter jet requires more software knowledge than these DAWs?  🫡 Of course, it's unsattisfing the VST envelopes and parameter assignments aren't preserved in the template.

Over the past few weeks, I've created a "Total VST-Control" for the Z3TA+2 Synth. This preset requires about 250 VST parameter envelopes, all of which have remote assignments. I use three MIDI channels (5/6/7 per 128 CCs). I would have liked to use it as a template, but... niente. Controlling it with Touch Portal is so awesome—I'm totally impressed by how stable it works and Sonar actually does a good job. 😁

See my YT-Clip about Touch Portal as a MIDI Controller:  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3VzIHqiIho&t=174s

 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 07:19 PM by Astraios