How best to produce "wind" vibrato with a MIDI instrument?

[Michael McBroom]

I'm working on a piece that has clarinets and flutes, and I would like to reproduce the type of "vibrato" that wind instrument players produce, namely a sort of pulsation of breath that causes changes in volume, rather than pitch. What I'm doing right now is I'm going into the Piano Roll, specifying a volume controller and then creating volume changes by drawing in "U" shaped dips in volume. This actually works pretty well, but I'm wondering if there might be an easier way to go about this. I don't know of any. How would you go about producing this effect?

 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Michael McBroom

[User 905133]

offensive alternative removed 

Edited January 16, 2020 by User 905133
simplistic option to repetition removed

[Michael McBroom]

Yes, that's an interesting take, and I can see how this would work with a reasonably full-featured synth. Unfortunately, the only synth I'm using in this project is TTS-1 and I don't think it has this level of down-on-the-bare-metal programming that one would need. That is a really good idea, though. Actually, it's worth checking out the various soft synths I have available that might have this ability and see if they have any decent instrument presets that might work for what I need. Guess I get to do some exploring.

On the other hand, the way I'm doing it now -- just carving out "U" shaped dips in the volume profile for the "vibrato" effect -- is working well enough. I'm getting the sound effect I'm after and, while CC7 may be occupied with this task momentarily, as soon as the vibrato sections are finished, it's back to its original task. Original, in that I use CC7 in almost all of my soft synth work. A musician who plays a non-electronic instrument rarely plays at a steady volume, so it really helps with the realism to add volume tweaks to the track throughout.

[Tom Riggs]

there are 2 types of vibrato for most wind instruments. Breath vibrato and pitch vibrato.  To mimic breath vibrato you would control with volume or expression. To mimic pitch vibrato you would do it with pitch bend.

Instruments like flute can only do breath vibrato. Reed instruments can do both types.

[Some Guy]

On 11/18/2019 at 10:30 AM, Michael McBroom said:

I'm working on a piece that has clarinets and flutes, and I would like to reproduce the type of "vibrato" that wind instrument players produce, namely a sort of pulsation of breath that causes changes in volume, rather than pitch. What I'm doing right now is I'm going into the Piano Roll, specifying a volume controller and then creating volume changes by drawing in "U" shaped dips in volume. This actually works pretty well, but I'm wondering if there might be an easier way to go about this. I don't know of any. How would you go about producing this effect?

 

The easiest way to go about do is  to just buy the SONiVOX orchestral companions and use their patches.  They're pretty decent and only $5 each.  They include solo instruments and ensemble for Brass and Woodwinds, and about 5 or 6 articulations with key switches.

I would absolutely not want to  manually...  Sounds like hell ?

Just go to Plugin Boutique and buy the sample libraries.  They're only $5 each (Strings doesn't have solo instruments, but brass and woodwinds do). 

[Kurre]

Hmm...volume automation and a sinus curve.

Would it be possible to treat the maximum height of a sinus curve as a point/node that could be dragged sideways individually? Then humanize those points/nodes.

Sorry. This just popped in to my head. Probably not possible but something for the future maybe.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Kurre
Correction.

[Michael McBroom]

Some Guy, I think I'll take your advice and just buy the patches. Cheap enough. The way I've done it, which was essentially carving out "U" shaped dips in the volume profile, works, but it sounds artificial. Rather abrupt. Maybe if I treat the curve more sinusoidal, as Kurre suggests, this might help some, but it's harder than hell trying to draw a sine curve with a mouse or a mouse pad. I'm coming around to the idea of the patches, though. I could use some good sounding ensemble patches for brass and woodwinds anyway.

[Notes_Norton]

I am a sax and both wind and keyboard synth player.

Most reed instruments use lip vibrato (pitch) more than diaphragm vibrato (volume). Flute players use diaphragm more although rolling the flute under your lip will create pitch bends.  For simplicity many of us call lip vibrato and diaphragm tremolo. I'll address vibrato (not tremolo)

1) When reed players are using vibrato the pitch usually goes from pitch, down to under pitch and back. If it ever goes sharp, it's not much. Why? It's the nature of the beast. It takes more effort to bend higher than the pitch.

2) On reed instruments, as the tone goes below pitch is gets darker, and as it goes back up to pitch it gets brighter. Your synth needs to do this or it won't sound quite right. The Physical Modeling Yamaha VL70m does this well (sadly out of production)

3) Constant speed like an LFO gives is rarely used. Sometimes starting slow, gradually increasing, and sometimes slowing again. Sometimes a subdivision of the tempo. Sometimes a contrast of the tempo (triplet feel over a straight eighth note rhythm and other variations). Sometimes not at all. It depends on the note, it's context in the emotional part of the song, and the artistic (or non-artistic) urges of the player.

4) Again depending on the song and context, some notes are hit flat for tension and brought up to pitch before engaging vibrato

5) Not only speed but intensity is governed by the note in it's context in the song.

6) It's not usually a sine wave but the amount of pitch vs a period of time is not sinusoidal. The player and the characteristics of the reed/mouthpiece/horn bore decides.

In other words, vibrato is not an on/off, LFO deal. It's an artistic device used by many reed players to enhance the emotional impact of the song. Rather than LFO you might try using a joystick and setting the pitch bend to something less than a half step.

I usually use a Wind MIDI Controller when I want to put reed and brass parts into a song (Yamaha WX5).

I hope this helps.

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[User 905133]

I agree your advice is more accurate to simulate actual performances.

Edited January 16, 2020 by User 905133
to remove reference to offensive alternative

[Notes_Norton]

Before I go on, there is more than one right way to do most anything, and there might even be a better way than the way I do it.

I play 7 instruments and voice but sax is my primary. We are always more critical on the instruments we play so if I am going to emulate a sax, flute, guitar, bass, or drums I am more critical than if I'm emulating a trombone or harmonica. In the wind synth community we call it Home Instrument Bias. Keyboards are easier with keyboard controllers as you can't help but play them like a keyboard.

On the sax there is pitch shift done with the reed (vibrato) and volume shift done with the diaphragm (tremolo). Many sax and wind synth players use those two terms to differentiate the two.

For vibrato I use good old pitch bend, for tremolo I prefer cc2 (breath) for wind instruments, if the synth doesn't recognize cc2, I'll go with cc11 (expression) as a second choice.

As far as a sine wave or U shaped wave is concerned, when playing the sax, the shape, insensitivity and speed of the vibrato depends on the song and can change drastically during the hold of a single note. I'd do it with a wind controller, or a joystick (set for less than a half step total travel) to get more realistic changes as the time goes by.  On an EWI I'd  use the pitch bend plates.

If you are wanting to do a faithful emulation of an instrument, you need to understand its limitations and it's capabilities. These are controlled by both the player and the construction of the instrument.

Some things about saxophone (in no particular order, or simply in the order I think of them - thinking out loud here)

• One note at a time and the timbre gets brighter as the notes get higher and also with increasing volume
• Vibrato is usually done with the reed, and it's much easier to relax and let the pitch to flat than to bite harder and make the pitch go higher. Plus the pitch bend is not linear, the same amount of lip movement makes more pitch bend as you go lower in pitch. So vibrato goes below pitch and back. If you do that LFO thing where it goes over and under by the same degree, it won't sound sax-like
• Vibrato is hardly ever constant like a LFO but is done in context with the music and up to the player's vision, and it often changes in real time during the duration of the note
• Tone changes with vibrato, darker when the note is flatter and brighter when it moves sharper
• Sax players often like to scoop up to the note. A little like a guitarist might by playing a not one fret lower and bending it up to pitch, but not as much as a half step flat.
• Sax players can change the tone and the vowel sound by both changing their embouchure and the shape of their oral cavity to get tones that resemble ooh and aah. Sometimes in a run I'll ooh-aah-ooh-aah... all the way up or down.
• Sax players can change their breath support and embouchure to get mellow, airy subtones to overblowing the horn for some bright distortion. The tone is rarely constant throughout any phrase
• Sax players can add distortion with their throat or more severely flutter tongue
• Sax players can attack the note in very different ways from slurs  (no articulation) to lightly touching the reed (legato) through slapping the reed
• Breath force can be changed at will, making the attack a severe accent or a slow rise. You can make it yell "Hey!" "Mmm" or anything in between
• Every note is not attacked the same way. Using one sample sometimes will kill sax expression if it attacks the note the same way every time.
• Breath force can make the volume rise and fall for expressiveness as a note is being held, and the timbre changes with those volume changes
• As the sax changes register (C# to D in the saxes key - tenor is a Bb instrument, alto Eb) it changes tone
• there is a lot more, and they will come after I hit submit but that's enough to get started.

Each instrument has it's quirks, and that's what makes it sound like that instrument. Tone is secondary to making the nuances of the instrument come out. After all when a comedian does an impression of the President or other famous person, he or she doesn't have the same voice, but relies on copping their expressive patterns. This is what you need to do when doing a good emulation of another instrument. If you want a sax, you need to give the part "true sax nature" or it won't sound right no matter what patch and how good the tone is.

You lean on the things your synth can do that emulate the instrument in question, and you avoid the things it cannot do. That is unless you don't want a faithful emulation and want something different, which is OK too.

All this goes to other instruments.

One very different example. MIDI drum rolls often sound like machine guns. When I do a single stroke roll on a drum, my right hand hits a bit harder than the left because it's stronger. That makes that hand brighter and louder. The left hand being weaker often lags an almost imperceptible bit (perhaps a clock tic or two in MIDI @196). Plus both sticks do not hit the drum in the exact same place, and as you move around the drum the tone changes. You can do something that approaches a single stroke roll that doesn't sound like a machine gun by detuning every other note a tiny bit, lowing it's volume a bit, and delaying that note a clock tic or two.

The great sax player, Charlie Parker once said, "You don't play the sax, you let the sax play you."

That goes for every instrument, you can't play a piano like a guitar or a trombone like a sax. So you have to figure out how the instrument you want to emulate plays the player, and that's your starting point.

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