Cakewalk Latency recording from Roland TD-27 Multi-Track Audio

[Alex Cordero]

MY GOAL:
Record *Multi-Track Audio* from my TD-27 Drumkit so I can mix and add VSTs as needed.
I've been recording L/R 1/4" out from the TD-27 all this time but the mix is not the best and I'm limited to what I can do with it on a single stereo track.

EQUIPMENT:
Roland TD-27, Good quality USB Cable, Brand New Gaming PC with 64Gb Ram, AMD Ryzen 9 9950 on a Asus X870 Gaming MB & Win11 Pro. (No Audio Card - just onboard), Focusrite Gen 3 2i2, and of course, Cakewalk.

SETUP:
The TD-27 is setup for Vendor Mode (which they suggested) and has updated firmware. Connected via USB directly to PC. The PC connects to my Focusrite which outputs to speakers. I've downloaded the latest TD27 drivers and rebooted/restarted everything. Windows is also up to date with no driver issues. Cakewalk is also up-to-date.

THE ISSUE:
When I go into Cakewalk preferences and select ASIO, I can play back all my other instrument tracks (bass, keys, guitar, vocals, etc), *BUT I can't select any individual drum tracks as they're greyed-out.
Selecting WASAPI Shared, I now can select the individual drum audio tracks, *BUT I get terrible *LATENCY* and can not adjust the buffer as it's greyed-out.
WASAPI Exclusive also allows me to select the drum audio tracks, *BUT now sounds horribly broken up and still has latency. Although I can adjust the buffer, it still sounds absolutely unusable.
I've downloaded ASIO4all, *BUT it didn't work at all. 

I've also tried on another computer (My new computers predecessor which has all the same software and setup, *BUT same result.
I can record no problem from L/Mono, Right, But that isn't what I'm trying to do.
I can also get Midi to record into the track, But also, not what I'm trying to do.
I've search forums and YouTube and can't find the answer.

Any suggestions are appreciated. Thanks

[David Baay]

The drastic difference between 2x the buffer latency (2 x 5.8ms = 11.6ms) and the reported round-trip of 28.1ms indicates that the TD-27 has a lot of hardware/firmware latency. Typical USB interfaces like your Focusrite will add only 6-8ms to the buffer latency, and good ones may add only 3-4. Adding 16.5ms is huge, and you're not going to eliminate that or compensate by running a smaller buffer (256 samples is a lot for real-time monitoring) . I can only think the TD-27's audio output is really only meant for recording-pre-existing MIDI and not real-time monitoring.

I would suggest your use the Focusrite to record MIDI in real time, monitoring the combined stereo analog output from the TD-27 through Sonar (or direct from the Focusrite with direct-monitoring engaged) and after polishing up the MIDI, switch to the TD-27 and record it's separate outputs. I realize this is awkward and not what you would like, but based on what the Driver Setting page is showing, you are not going to get real-tme playability with the TD-27 driver.

You could try recording the multitrack audio from the TD-27 with its driver selected while direct-monitoring from it's headphone out. The recordings will be automatically compensated for Input latency when you stop recording, but you will probably find that the MIDI is late because you're performing to a delayed late click from Sonar due to the Output latency and MIDI is not latency compensated. If you're not planning on editing the MIDI and re-recording maybe that doesn't matter to you.

Edited Saturday at 06:42 PM by David Baay

[HOOK]

9 minutes ago, David Baay said:

I would suggest your use the Focusrite to record MIDI in real time, monitoring the combined stereo analog output from the TD-27 through Sonar (or direct from the Focusrite with direct-monitoring engaged) and after polishing up the MIDI, switch to the TD-27 and record it's separate outputs. I realize this is awkward and not what you would like, but based on what the Driver Setting page is showing, you are not going to get real-tme playability with the TD-27 driver.

This is probably your best bet if that driver isn't up to snuff.  But...

Out of curiosity....does this update apply to your TD-27...and have you installed it yet?  Sorry.  Couldn't post a link.

 

 

[Glenn Stanton]

with drums, even a 2ms latency will be audible to most people. so a 28+ms latency will be nearly impossible to ignore (basically the premise for this entire thread).

and as an ahole, i'll repeat my suggestion of monitoring live the drum performance vs the other instrumentation, and if need be, include the metronome in the playback. this way you're playing to the material (without looping backing) and hearing your drumming live via the analog path in your IO. turn off DAW monitoring of your MIDI and drum audio from the DAW. 

[Sock Monkey]

Agreed completely Glen.  

The latency does not matter unless you engage INPUT ECHO which is a bad idea.  You always monitor audio recording at it's source, not after it has traveled through 6 different pieces of technology that each  will add latency.  And ya, those RTL specs are abnormally high but my guess Roland hasn't updated how they make their driver since they owned Cakewalk.  

I personally don't see the OP having any issues recording if they use the TD27 headphones to monitor the kit and Cakewalks playback. I'll almost guarantee the Midi and audio tracks will be super close to perfectly synced to the project. 

Pretty easy to test. 

And this is why everyone who uses digital kits will always recommend not using a VST to create the sound while recording. It will be horribly late. Unless you have a million dollar audio system and get only 3ms of RTL without dropouts. The average interface these days can get close to 6ms RTL but most of us are lucky to get 8, or even 10 without drop outs in a half finished project. That is certainly enough to throw off most musicians timing.  

Edited Saturday at 09:43 PM by Sock Monkey

[Alex Cordero]

5 hours ago, Sock Monkey said:

Sounds like you only missed the small detail of clicking "Apply" 

It all looks good to me.

Few things I would add.  In the Sync and Caching. Make sure the TD 27 shows as Latency Adjustment device. This is critical for being in sync.  

Also if you want to record and playback midi make sure that the TD27 is selected as an input and output device. Always hit Apply after making changes. 

Awesome... didn't even see the sync/cache setting there. It shows both the FR and TD as options.
The Midi part is selected.

Thanks!

[Alex Cordero]

5 hours ago, David Baay said:

The drastic difference between 2x the buffer latency (2 x 5.8ms = 11.6ms) and the reported round-trip of 28.1ms indicates that the TD-27 has a lot of hardware/firmware latency. Typical USB interfaces like your Focusrite will add only 6-8ms to the buffer latency, and good ones may add only 3-4. Adding 16.5ms is huge, and you're not going to eliminate that or compensate by running a smaller buffer (256 samples is a lot for real-time monitoring) . I can only think the TD-27's audio output is really only meant for recording-pre-existing MIDI and not real-time monitoring.

I would suggest your use the Focusrite to record MIDI in real time, monitoring the combined stereo analog output from the TD-27 through Sonar (or direct from the Focusrite with direct-monitoring engaged) and after polishing up the MIDI, switch to the TD-27 and record it's separate outputs. I realize this is awkward and not what you would like, but based on what the Driver Setting page is showing, you are not going to get real-tme playability with the TD-27 driver.

You could try recording the multitrack audio from the TD-27 with its driver selected while direct-monitoring from it's headphone out. The recordings will be automatically compensated for Input latency when you stop recording, but you will probably find that the MIDI is late because you're performing to a delayed late click from Sonar due to the Output latency and MIDI is not latency compensated. If you're not planning on editing the MIDI and re-recording maybe that doesn't matter to you.

I definitely plan on editing and quantizing.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Alex Cordero]

5 hours ago, HOOK said:

This is probably your best bet if that driver isn't up to snuff.  But...

Out of curiosity....does this update apply to your TD-27...and have you installed it yet?  Sorry.  Couldn't post a link.

 

 

Thanks Hook!

I do have V2 installed.

[Alex Cordero]

5 hours ago, Glenn Stanton said:

with drums, even a 2ms latency will be audible to most people. so a 28+ms latency will be nearly impossible to ignore (basically the premise for this entire thread).

and as an ahole, i'll repeat my suggestion of monitoring live the drum performance vs the other instrumentation, and if need be, include the metronome in the playback. this way you're playing to the material (without looping backing) and hearing your drumming live via the analog path in your IO. turn off DAW monitoring of your MIDI and drum audio from the DAW. 

I did mess with the monitoring on both the FR and in CW. Maybe I had missed something there in my frustration.

[Alex Cordero]

I'm going to guess this was just a weird gremlin. At this point I can't even force back the latency issue. (Hopefully it never comes back  )

Maybe you guys are good luck.

Thanks everyone for the great input! Still maybe this post will help someone else.

 

[David Baay]

17 hours ago, Alex Cordero said:

So, a few hours ago the latency stopped. No other updates, changes or anything I haven't tried before... except having L/R and USB connected at the same time. Maybe has nothing to do with it.

I have it currently recording Audio (not Midi) to multi tracks. (I'm ok with that for now but Midi would be the next step)
The TD27 simultaneously has L/R connected to the Focusrite and USB connected to the PC. Both options work. (Just seeing what worked and didn't)
It's recording from the TD27 into Cakewalk while the previously recorded tracks AND the sound from the TD27 is routed through the Focusrite coming out of the speakers.

I missed this post. Sounds like you are now direct-monitoring the TD27's analog output through the Focusrite which doesn't require Sonar to be using its driver. If you enable Input Echo on the tracks receiving the multitrack input from the TD-27's driver, you'll hear an echo/delay from the latency. Leave Input Echo off, and it's a perfectly valid solution apart from not being able to record anything else from the Focusrite's inputs, not being able to have FX applied to the drums in real time, and having some additional output latency from soft synths if you ever play/record live from a MIDI keyboard.

[mettelus]

5 hours ago, Alex Cordero said:

I did mess with the monitoring on both the FR and in CW. Maybe I had missed something there in my frustration.

You want to direct monitor as close to the source as possible (i.e., the headphones out on the TD-27 itself when tracking), and disable input echo (and even mute) the tracks in the DAW. Stupid side note here but need to state it... there is sometimes a vast difference between tracking and post-production (just listen to some raw stems of production work). Even simple FX can add latency... the point of tracking is not to hear the "final product" but to capture the performance (just need to capture the (raw) audio from the kit that will feed post-production).

[David Baay]

Since the path from TD-27 to and through the Focusrite's direct monitoring circuit is all analog, monitoring from the Focusrite will be the same as from the TD-27 in terms of latency and will be necessary to hear Sonar's click or existing tracks. I agree tracking is often best done "dry" but there are situations where you really need to hear FX (e.g. syncing the performance tempo to a delay when not playing to a click), and it can help the performance to  be hearing some semblance of the reverb space that will be on the final mix as it can affect how you articulate. You just need to stay away from FX that use big lookahead buffers.

Edited Monday at 06:03 PM by David Baay