How to add reverb / chorus to GM file?

[Sock Monkey]

I am in the process of converting my Cakewalk backing track projects into GM midi files. 
 

I always thought that if you set the reverb and chorus sends in the track inspector advanced midi settings that would be embedded into the midi file? Seems not. 
On re-opening the settings are not saved. 
The TTS-1 returns to its default. This includes reverb on the bass channel, not good. 

So is this only saved if I learn how to add it to the event list??  It’s been 30 years since I’ve done that!! 

I was thinkin' that possibly this can be done in a basic Midi sequencer?  

Edited December 4 by Sock Monkey

[Sock Monkey]

Conclusion after finally making this work in the event list= Huge waist of time. Every GM player interprets effects differently.  Just like CC 1 on organs. 

Life is better with using proper VST instruments.  You can try to make GM sound like something but it is doomed to sound terrible. 

[mettelus]

All MIDI is dependent on the VSTi playing them, so you are going to run into a wall of sorts trying to keep things 100% MIDI. Even with different players, the bank/patch information (i.e., the actual sound) from a MIDI file may be interpreted differently. I understand why you are doing it, but you can only go so far with making it "universal."

[Terry Kelley]

Agreed. Any reverb or chorus will be dependent on the sound module being able to do it. The command to add reverb or chorus can be in MIDI but not the actual reverb or chorusing. 

[Sock Monkey]

It was a rabbit hole I tripped into. Some downloaded midi files sound spectacular and if you disembowel them you'll see pages of Controller data. This was my quest. How hard is it to enhance a boring midi song with using controllers? Well, not hard, but very detailed work. The Events list is from 30 years ago. You need to have good eyesight!

And your right, in the end I have little use for my songs as GM because it is much easier to just save any project as a midi file, then open it in another daw and add the same VST instruments you used in Sonar. 

The reason I was hoping to make these sound a little better than they do as a raw midi files is I plan on uploading them and sharing them. I have around 300 popular songs most are custom made by me over the last 35 years. A lot of them are not available on the free sites like  https://www.midiworld.com/search.htm    A site I depend on because it has never been trashed by ads and click bait. 

I plan on paying them back with my collection. But it would be a huge undertaking to make them GM. I have added all the channels and patches. SO generally they sound OK. But they sound flat without turning on reverb and chorus. 

[SirWillyDS12]

MIDI CC 91 - Reverb amount...

MIDI CC 93 - Chorus amount...

The Cakewalk MIDI Strip, available in the "Inspector" has dedicated control knobs for both reverb and chorus at the top of the module... So adding them  to your standard GM MIDI file would not be all that hard...

[Sock Monkey]

30 minutes ago, SirWillyDS12 said:

MIDI CC 91 - Reverb amount...

MIDI CC 93 - Chorus amount...

The Cakewalk MIDI Strip, available in the "Inspector" has dedicated control knobs for both reverb and chorus at the top of the module... So adding them  to your standard GM MIDI file would not be all that hard...

Thank you for your answer. The advance midi strip does not print to the file. Only the track header and the event list. And the track header level is eve questionable. 

 read the first post. 
 

And yes adding cc91 and 93 to the event list works perfectly but none of the players seemed to respond the same. Some you can hear the reverb others it was not noticeable. Most players don’t give you any visual feedback so no way to confirm what is happening. 

[mettelus]

Are you planning to post them as MIDI? If so, a word of caution... Windows (and browsers) have been phasing out GM support, so it is possible someone will click on a MIDI file without being able to hear anything. If they then import that into a DAW, the VSTi(s) chosen can get you back into the same boat of the playback not matching. I haven't touched Win11 yet, so not sure if there is any default player available. Some sites do have a default player embedded into them though, so is more a consideration.

[Sock Monkey]

 GM has been around since the beginning of midi. It will be around for at long time yet. It is most certainly supported by the industry. Yamaha, Korg, Roland and Casio as  example. 
 

I have W11. My files play in Media Player and Winamp.. They sound more or less the same when opening them in Sonar with TTS-1. Note: I’m one of the lucky people who still has that option. 

I also have a collection of midi players that are stand alone. All use sound fonts.  The one I like the most just was updated yesterday! That’s not a sign of it being extinct. 

GM midi playback seems pretty standard in all the major Daw’s. Some just do it better than others. 

in  3 other Daw’s I now own of which I am not allowed to mention my files open and play just like they did in Sonar.
 

One new Daw I just bought the Files open and there’s a tempo map but no instruments. You have to add them.  This is what happens in the new versions of Bandlab’s 3 Daw’s. 
 

Then there’s BIAB ( is that allowed?) and 2 other AI music creating apps I own that also import and export GM midi.  

Cakewalk Next only allows drag and drop and will populate the instruments but not the tempo. 
Then to say GM is not supported is only possibly from living in a small bubble of Sonar/ Cakewalk. The majority of the music software and hardware companies are still on board. 

It was only Cakewalk/Sonar that have now completely. removed the ability to play GM files. 
Why? 

Edited December 5 by Sock Monkey

[SirWillyDS12]

53 minutes ago, Sock Monkey said:

 read the first post. 
 

Sorry, I missed that in your original post... Saving as MIDI Type 1 does "Print" the controllers from the "knobs" to the standard MIDI file... MIDI Type 0 does not... But upon reloading the file into Cakewalk, CbB does not automatically move the controllers back to the two knobs in the MIDI Strip... They do show up in the PRV and the Event List... If you right click on them in the PRV and Convert MIDI to Envelop it will move them back to the Knobs...

 

59 minutes ago, Sock Monkey said:

 

And yes adding cc91 and 93 to the event list works perfectly but none of the players seemed to respond the same. Some you can hear the reverb others it was not noticeable. Most players don’t give you any visual feedback so no way to confirm what is happening. 

 

Yes, I'm sure that all GM MIDI devices will all respond differently...

[Sock Monkey]

@SirWillyDS12

These are Type 1. 

Try this. Make changes using the reverb and chorus controls in the midi strip with the TTS-1 open. You will notice the TTS-1 responding. 
Save the file as a Midi type 1. Close and re open   Start play back, and those changes are not happening. 
The proof is in the event list. It’s empty. 
 

If you insert a midi track.  Record one note. Now leaving it in record sound on sound smart recording and wiggle the controls. Nothing is recorded. 
Then I tried assigning midi learn and using my controller this got recoded but as the wrong info. It was cc71 and cc72 the assignment of my Roland uses. And it is only retained as a Project file the data is not in a midi file. So you see I tried everything I understand but in the end only manually entering the data worked. 

[SirWillyDS12]

So. if I just set the controller to an arbitrary number, say 50 and save the type 1 MIDI file upon reloading there is no CC event... You are correct... If I record the movement of the "knob" as automation (which is what I was doing) Cakewalk will convert that to a MIDI CC upon saving the type 1 MIDI file... When you reload the file it is either a CC91 or CC93 depending on if it is reverb or chorus... But it does not assign it back to the "knob" unless you Convert Envelop...

If I inserted the TTS as an Instrument Track and record automation as an instrument track it does not record it to the knob or as a CC with or without a MIDI channel selected... Upon reloading the MIDI file the TTS MIDI Channel will be muted, strange! If I insert the TTS as a split instrument with a dedicated MIDI Channel and record Automation on one of the knobs Cakewalk WILL record it and save it as a CC... When you reload the CC will be there...

So this really sounds like a long standing Cakewalk bug that may or may not have been reported in the past... Much like the arbitrary re-assigning of MIDI device bug upon loading a project if the MIDI device is not connected...

Added... The same was the case for the "Volume Fader" CC7... If I just set it to a number it is not converted to a CC7 upon saving, If I record Automation it is saved as a CC7 envelop in the standard MIDI file...

 

Edited December 5 by SirWillyDS12

[Sock Monkey]

Thanks a million for your detective work. 
I’m not sure I’d call it a bug so much as being the why it is designed. 
Cakewalk is one of the few Daw’s with actual midi tracks. Most only have instrument tracks.

[Terry Kelley]

12 hours ago, Sock Monkey said:

...
Cakewalk is one of the few Daw’s with actual midi tracks. Most only have instrument tracks.

Really?

[Sock Monkey]

I would love to make a list but we are now not allowed to mention other Daw’s. 
But I can mention Cakewalk Next as example. 

[Terry Kelley]

Whatsamatta McFly? Chicken? ;)

We could do it by  referencing only their costs!

[Promidi]

Add CC91 and CC93 for Chorus.

[Promidi]

On 12/6/2024 at 5:53 AM, Sock Monkey said:

And yes adding cc91 and 93 to the event list works perfectly but none of the players seemed to respond the same. Some you can hear the reverb others it was not noticeable. Most players don’t give you any visual feedback so no way to confirm what is happening. 

If the players are not responding to CC91 and CC93, then they are not proper GM players.

Play the files using a MIDI monitor to make sure the CC are actually being sent.

[Sock Monkey]

It’s not that they don’t respond They respond differently. In one it might be overwhelming and another it’s barely noticeable. 
It’s all good. It was just a rabbit hole I climbed out of and have  since covered the hole. 

Im back at it using VST instruments. 

[Promidi]

1 hour ago, Sock Monkey said:

It’s not that they don’t respond They respond differently. In one it might be overwhelming and another it’s barely noticeable.

Actually, yes, you’re right. They do. When I changed Yamaga XG (Think of XG as GM on steroids) devices to an SW1000XG, I also had to reduce the reverb levels as sent via CC91.