Wookiee Posted December 5 Share Posted December 5 @T Boog PreSonus offer a perpetual license, but they now offer a subscription as well, which offers more than the perpetual licence. Steinberg have been talking about one. Roland Cloud, UVI, all are better deals for holding a subscription with them. Would I like a perpetual licence for Cakewalk, yes I had one from 1992 until 2017 when Gibson dropped their little bomb. Now to keep using the program I liked for the last 32 years, a subscription is my only choice. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T Boog Posted December 5 Share Posted December 5 18 minutes ago, Wookiee said: Would I like a perpetual licence for Cakewalk, yes I hear u bud and hope u know I wasnt throwing shade at u personally. Cheers 👍 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amberwolf Posted December 6 Share Posted December 6 7 hours ago, Wookiee said: You may hate subscriptions but it is the way of the software world going forward. All software developers have mortgages, mouths to feed. Subscriptions are the result of pirates and stolen software. So many complain about paying for software, but how would you feel if every now and then you found 75% of your wages had been stopped because theives had stolen product from your employer, leaving him unable to pay your wages, because he had bills to pay. Unfortunate that the paying customers are the ones punished (by having to deal with all sorts of issues from the copy protection methods of various companies) for other's misdeeds. Especially since the ones causing the problems are just going to hack it so it still works for them without paying for it, so all the stuff that still punishes the paying customers just slows down the pirates, from what i've seen in google searches over the years when this topic comes up. I certainly understand the money issue...but I disagree with the ways many companies have gone about protecting their stuff because of the problems it creates for legitimate paying users. //end rant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amberwolf Posted December 6 Share Posted December 6 4 hours ago, Wookiee said: Would I like a perpetual licence for Cakewalk, yes I had one from 1992 until 2017 when Gibson dropped their little bomb. Now to keep using the program I liked for the last 32 years, a subscription is my only choice. Not strictly true. You can still use the older versions (as long as your computer system is compatible, as mine is with even a really ancient version), you just can't get updated versions without the subscription. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starship Krupa Posted December 6 Share Posted December 6 7 hours ago, Wookiee said: You may hate subscriptions but it is the way of the software world going forward. Perhaps, but with software such as DAW software, there are very real concerns that go along with subscription-only. First and foremost, being able to use the software in case of financial emergency, failure of the manufacturer, whatever. It's been repeated endlessly that "subscription model is the future," but I look around and still, to this day, the only DAW's that have no perpetual option are Audition, Sonar, and Next. There are more DAW's that offer no subscription option than there are ones that offer no perpetual option. That's not speculation or prediction, it is how things actually are. I think that best way for a DAW manufacturer who wants to get people on a subscription/membership plan is to do as at least one popular DAW manufacturer is doing and offer a "hybrid" license, where after the user has paid for a year of subscription fees, if they choose to drop the subscription they get a license for the software in whatever release it was when they stopped. This allows the publisher to expose users of the software to the benefits of membership while easing the users' fears of not being able to work on their projects if they should find themselves unable to keep a subscription current. 8 hours ago, Wookiee said: Subscriptions are the result of pirates and stolen software. No they're not. Strict license enforcement is the result of piracy. If someone's going to pirate software, it's no more difficult to pirate a subscription-licensed program than a perpetual-licensed one. If someone is going to crack your licensing scheme, they will do it one way or the other. The reason publishers like subscriptions, and it's a very good reason, is that they represent stable cash flow. For software that is perpetual-only, if the publisher is going to keep getting paid, they need to keep selling both new licenses and upgrade licenses. That can have an unfortunate effect on software quality when developer hours are dedicated to feature expansion at the expense of bug fixing. I believe that SONAR had suffered from that at the time that BandLab acquired it. Sure, who doesn't love new features, but longtime users are more likely to want the existing features to work correctly than they are to want new features. The kind of things that faithful users want, which is bug fixes, tuning of existing performance, and refining of existing features, just don't sell licenses. So how do you get paid? Steady guaranteed flow of cash from the userbase is the best way. The banks and analysts love nothing better than a steady flow of cash. And that's fine, nobody has a problem with that, but people want to know that in the event of a catastrophe, which as we know, veteran Sonar users are not strangers to, they'll be able to keep using the tool(s) they've invested so much money and time into. I don't believe that the permanent license for people who fork out for a year's subscription fees would cannibalize subscription sales. If someone is enough of a loyal user that they'll pay for a year of it, and if the subscription/membership services are actually useful, they'll keep paying for it to get the new features, both large and small. If they're the sort that just refuses to pay software subscription fees out of principle or whatever, they're not going to get a subscription just because there's no other license option. They'll switch to a DAW that offers the kind of license they prefer. People in their first year of a hybrid plan may even start digging the extra benefits of membership as well, the music publishing stuff and all that. Heck, they may even understand that continuing to pay their membership dues is the best way to keep the program they love alive. They just need to know that if they run out of money, or the DAW ceases sales and development (in the case of SONAR, again), they won't be left with nothing. That's really all there is to it. So here's hoping that BandLab will eventually offer a hybrid licensing plan for Sonar. I think it would be a win for all. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T Boog Posted December 6 Share Posted December 6 9 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said: There are more DAW's that offer no subscription option than there are ones that offer no perpetual option Yes, and a company offering the option of purchase OR subscription, like presonus, is a GOOD thing. That's completely diff than Bandlab forcing subscription only. I was gonna mention that in my second response to wookiee but it's starting to feel like a waste of time so I just let it rest. Im sure everyone's gonna keep complaining but the only way bandlab will offer a license is if more people refuse the subscription only model. Money is what talks. If someone bellyaches but still buys the sub, then they LITERALLY support the subscription only model. The rest is just noise. That's why I never subbed. As I said in a diff thread, Id rather buy a somewhat inferior daw than have a subscription. And that's aside from the principle involved which makes me wanna jump ship even more. When they eventually end CbB, I guess then we'll see what happens to those who are hanging in the wings right now. I personally am not doing the sub thing. But ultimately, I cant blame bandlab for the 'steady money' grab if they can get enough people to go along with it. It's really up to the customer base. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wookiee Posted December 6 Share Posted December 6 @Amberwolf to clarify, to keep using the program at its latest version I have to subscribe. I am fully aware the old versions still works, it feels a little like you are spilting hairs. Perhaps check my significant to see my machines spec. Though if your on a phone or tablet you may not see 8t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wookiee Posted December 6 Share Posted December 6 @Starship Krupa I disagree, the problem is people want something for nothing. Because software was "crackable" in the early days, people crack it to day. If software companies had enforced licenses and prosecuted more thieves then the problem might not be as bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starship Krupa Posted December 6 Share Posted December 6 1 hour ago, Wookiee said: @Starship Krupa I disagree, the problem is people want something for nothing. Because software was "crackable" in the early days, people crack it to day. If software companies had enforced licenses and prosecuted more thieves then the problem might not be as bad. Okay, I'm confused. What problem are you referring to? What I disagree with is your statement that "subscriptions are the result of pirates and stolen software." I don't understand what the link would be between software piracy and companies preferring that their products be licensed via subscription and/or as part of a membership package. Software piracy, if it causes anything, causes reduced revenue. The idea is that a percentage of people who would otherwise have paid for a license won't pay if they can find cracked copies. But that's equally true for both permanent and subscription licenses. Unless you're suggesting that insufficient revenue due to piracy drove software publishers to try to get more revenue by selling subscription licenses, I don't see a connection. From what I observe, cost of ownership over time is usually less with a subscription plan than it is with perpetual licenses and periodic paid upgrades. And if it costs less, that means the publisher is getting paid less by the consumer. In the case of SONAR, how would switching to charging $70 for a year's use of a program, bundling it with another DAW and a bunch of premium services result in more revenue for the publisher? Didn't it used to cost well over $200? It's not the lump sum they're after, it's the more reliable cash flow. Getting $100 a year, but only if you convince people to upgrade or attract new users, allowing them to upgrade only if they feel like it, isn't as good as getting $5 a month reliably. That's from an accounting standpoint as well as pleasing lenders and the all-important stock market analysts. 'cause newsflash, what Caldecott are selling isn't Sonar, it isn't even BandLab memberships. It's stock in Caldecott. And stock in Caldecott looks like a better buy when revenue is steady. Less so when it's waxing and waning due to long product release cycles. A finance person can grasp "we have 1,000,000 subscribers who pay $10 a month." That means that they can expect the company to get $10,000,000 in January, and $10,000,000 in February, all the way through December. "We have 1,500,000 existing users who paid us $300 each, we typically attract 1,000 new users each month, and we're expecting to sell most of them $150 upgrades when we ship the next major release some time in the next 6 months. This depends on whether they find it attractive enough to upgrade. We expect to get a spike in new users too, at $300 per" doesn't quite have the same ring as "$10,000,000 coming in every month." Even if it's more money, it's a gamble, it's more dependent on outside things like the state of the economy, we have to be sure that people feel secure enough to drop that $150 or $300. I'm saying that all of this is more relevant than piracy as a driving force toward subscription licensing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xoo Posted December 6 Share Posted December 6 7 hours ago, Starship Krupa said: where after the user has paid for a year of subscription fees, if they choose to drop the subscription they get a license for the software in whatever release it was when they stopped. Like, oh, I dunno SONAR used to be 🙂 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Kelley Posted December 6 Share Posted December 6 (edited) I completely understand the reservations about getting heavily involved in software that will stop working if the company goes #!# up or sheds the product due to losses. Like it's never happened before. We will just have to see if Bandlab can avoid the same pitfalls. On the other hand, rental is probably the only viable future for Cakewalk/Sonar. So it's best to let it wander off. Edited December 6 by Terry Kelley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wookiee Posted December 6 Share Posted December 6 @Starship Krupa if you can't see what I mean, I doubt even a reply as long as yours will never get you to. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIM Productions Posted December 6 Share Posted December 6 20 hours ago, DeeringAmps said: You quoted support from BL. As stated by @Terry Kelley it’s not up to the bakers. How many times do YOU have to be reminded? Really? t in my opinion you need to stay much calmer and above all you don't have to tell me what to write. I'm fond of Sonar's story and will call the staff the Bakers, whenever I want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wookiee Posted December 6 Share Posted December 6 This thread has done as so many threads do. Oh look a rabbit hole. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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