Is it ethical to play loud enough to damage the ears of your audience?

[Mánibranðr Studios]

On 11/15/2019 at 10:26 PM, Notes_Norton said:

And as I said before, volume is a drug for musicians. Music just sounds better when it is loud.

Only up to a point. The mind naturally attenuates sound that is too soft compared to the peak volume of a song, when the noise is too loud, that gate/threshold becomes narrower and you lose effective dynamics.

Imagine being flashbanged, for a while, all you can see is various shades of white.

[slartabartfast]

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2019.01153/full

http://www.blesser.net/downloads/eContact Loud Music.pdf

 

Edited November 24, 2019 by slartabartfast

[Toddskins]

1 hour ago, slartabartfast said:

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2019.01153/full

http://www.blesser.net/downloads/eContact Loud Music.pdf

 

Both articles are complete rubbish.

The first, is so typical of psychologists putting on an air of superiority of learning, that to say it is confusing and makes no sense, but then I run the risk of being esteemed as unable to follow.  I was unable to follow, and my ability to read tough things is pretty good (if I may without wishing to seem conceited or arrogant).  I can usually follow difficult textbooks, and run on sentences which require parsing, and endeavor to understand topics that I know  most readers will not attempt more than a couple sentences before putting the book down.  I could not digest it.

It was as though the writer was deliberately trying to be difficult to understand, so as to make it appear as though whatever was said was to be accepted because of "authority."  The same thing is done in economics -- if it is made to seem very difficult and near impossible to understand, then people might believe they cannot understand and should leave the money business to the "wise authorities". (Spending more than you earn, or take in in taxes, will make you bankrupt, is not rocket science.  But most schools of economics do not teach this.  Why?)

The second is not scientific, although a few statements do seem proper and logical.  But the continued use of "evolution" which is not only untrue, but a theory that even evolutionists are not in agreement about, so when the word is used as if it were a scientific fact that everybody understands and accepts is, weak.  In this case, the word was used in an ineffectual way in each of the 3 or 4 times I saw it. 

Then countless assumptions by the writer are made.  One, for example, that being in a large crowd and being subjected to loud music makes me want to participate with the rest of the crowd in whatever the "performance" is attempting to achieve.  NOT TRUE.  And also, the premise that the majority of people like or love being subjected to loud music and that it is because they find it pleasing.  That was the thesis, but it was never proven!

As if you did not already know, I object.  I and all my friends and family do not find it pleasing.

I did like the statement about loudness causing the other sensory spaces to get drowned out.  That made sense.  But the writer's belief that loudness is something enjoyable is not a fact.  Increasing the loudness (intensity) is not the equivalent of increasing pleasure.  I mean really, what's that thing about diminishing returns...

Edited November 24, 2019 by Toddskins

[Fwrend]

In the Spring of 2018 I went on my first cruise with Carnival.  The shows and talent were good but the "loudness" was really unbearable.  The mix on the tracks & band was good but as soon as the vocals came in, they just blared.  While I have walked out/away because of poor talent, I haven't walked out of a venue because it was too loud - until that trip.   I wasn't going to sit there and hold my hands over the ears.  It hurt.

I was watching the sound person.  The show was nearly all automated and she never once adjusted (mixed) vocals - individually or grouped.  My hands would have been all over the faders throughout.

I complained to the cruise director and told him  first that it was unhealthy and not beneficial to the performers or the audience and second that there was nothing  enjoyable about tolerating the volume.

When the survey came following the trip, I voiced the same concern and my observations of the performance.  Much to my surprise, I received a reply, phone number, and request to call.  I did and we had a really good conversation about volume, mixing, and automation pros & cons.  He did say that they have had some issues with that particular engineer.  So, kudos to Carnival for the follow-up and at least acknowledging their quality assurance.

Coincidentally, my wife is a nurse administrator and I have done some Occupational Medicine training and testing.  Earlier this week, I learned to do listening tests.  OSHA standards state that exposure to 8 hours with a Time Weighted Average (TWA) of 85db would require the company to do annual tests to  verify whether shifts in hearing thresholds occur so they can make needed changes in hearing protection.

We did testing for a local company and it was very interesting to see the individual differences.  The test is administered blindly beginning at 25db (for each frequency)  at 1000hz for approximately one second while  they respond when they hear the signal.  If not, you decrement 10db test then increment 5db until they hear which is their threshold for that frequency.  We then test at 500hz, 2000hz, 3000hz, 4000hz, 6000hz.

It was quite interesting as some e.g. might  have a threshold at 0db at 2000hz, 30db at 3000hz, 20db at 4000hz. It was really varied.  I even had a few who went to 90db at 3000hz - I could literally hear the signal before they acknowledged and they had closed-ear headphones on.

I came away with a new appreciation for hearing health and hearing-aid providers who should actually take the time to personalize devices and EQ for individual customers.  We all hear differently which I would assume means we mix differently as well?

[Notes_Norton]

Loud sounds good to me, but it's bad for me. Probably most people which is why in the 1990s and up, pop music was extremely compressed to sound louder on the radio. That became known as the "loudness wars".

Years ago I knew a drummer (he is now in the 'great gig in the sky') who played standards jazz to the 55+ people in the 1980s. They played small settings, and never played all that loud. Probably at the drum kt about 90-100 db. He kept buying brighter and brighter cymbals because his high frequency was so damaged that he couldn't hear them well.

I think it's OK if we damage ourselves for our craft. It's a freedom. But I don't think it's OK to harm somebody else permanently.

Notes

 

[Mánibranðr Studios]

I remembered when Iron Maiden got caught up in the loudness war, and that resulted in the worst-sounding albums they've made. It is a shame too, because I really loved how Rainmaker was composed.

[craigb]

1 hour ago, Freyja Grimaude-Valens said:

I remembered when Iron Maiden got caught up in the loudness war, and that resulted in the worst-sounding albums they've made. It is a shame too, because I really loved how Rainmaker was composed.

While true, this isn't what was being discussed.  Loudness wars in terms of albums means losing all the headroom and compressing everything to mush so that the wave form looks like one big sausage.  This topic is about playing live at a volume that is known to injury the ears of the listeners.

That said, here's another example of what you're talking about:

[Mánibranðr Studios]

3 minutes ago, craigb said:

While true, this isn't what was being discussed.  Loudness wars in terms of albums means losing all the headroom and compressing everything to mush so that the wave form looks like one big sausage.  This topic is about playing live at a volume that is known to injury the ears of the listeners.

That said, here's another example of what you're talking about:

It is related since we're at a tangent discussing why people subject themselves to loud music, despite the knowledge that it will damage their hearing, which, you know, was what drove the loudness wars in the first place.

[Tezza]

On 11/19/2019 at 7:43 AM, Gswitz said:

I carry ear plugs.

 

Same here, I had a terrible tinnitus in my left ear that went on for years, there is a little high frequency loss but for the most part it seems to have gone away....touch wood.

It was due to playing on the right of the drummer in bands...or to the position I used to take in a local nightclub that I frequented much to often, not to sure.

I have ear plugs in my car at all times so I can use them if necessary, I also take them with me when going to the cinema, I've only used them once there, I have a cut down version especially for the cinema, don't use them usually but it's nice to know they are there if I need them.

Even in a shop when the loud alarm went off, I dropped everything and went outside.

I remember in the heavy metal band, we played at a particular venue regularly and due to complaints by local residents, they installed a traffic light system, when it glowed red then you had to turn down but the volume was pretty low. So the crew would fix the light so it would only ever glow green or orange, regardless of the volume, they would change it after.  Worked a treat for many gigs!

These days, volume doesn't seem to be a concern where and when I play live, more jazzy and acoustic type stuff.

[craigb]

I played John Cage's 4'33 at full volume and the mime next door went nuts!

[Notes_Norton]

When I was in a road band opening for headliners with Marshall amps and Voice Of The Theater PA speakers, it was too loud, but I was too young and too dumb to care.

Fortunately I learned about ear plugs when the damage was still classified as very mild. Big thanks goes out to the more experienced musician who warned me.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Notes_Norton

[bvideo]

12 hours ago, craigb said:

I played John Cage's 4'33 at full volume and the mime next door went nuts!

You could write for Stephen Wright.

Actually, here is a Stephen Wright line: "Last night I played a blank tape at full blast. The mime next door went nuts."

Your line is funnier.

[InstrEd]

I'm staying a very short time in this thread because you all are TOO LOUD! ?