Is it ethical to play loud enough to damage the ears of your audience?

[Notes_Norton]

Is it ethical to play loud enough to damage the ears of your audience?

We read a lot about ear protection for musicians, but what about the people who we can't live without? The audience.

The included chart shows maximum hours of exposure to volume levels measured on a Sound Pressure Level meter set for "A" weighting and "Slow" response. These max hours are for a 24 hour period and they are going to have more sound exposure before and after your gig. These are OSHA estimates, some experts think the values should be about 5 db lower for the same amount of time.

Most audience members don't know about ear damage and even if they do, have no way to accurately measure the volume. So is it up to us to protect them from permanent ear damage?

What brought this up was a gig we recently had. It was for members of a dozen or so regional yacht clubs from various locations in South Florida. There were probably about 100 members. The gig included a dinner set, some announcements and then lots of dancing. We've done this event for a number of years in a row.

It was held in a hotel. On the way out we passed a lounge and the band was playing at least at 110db. It actually hurt our ears as we walked by so I put in my 25db musicians ear plugs, and it was still too loud. At 110db after a minute irreversible hearing damage occurs. It's permanent, it can't be undone, there is no cure.

Me? I think that is unethical unless a warning is posted. How about you?

We keep our volume to 85dba at the closest table to the band. If they want it louder, it's their choice, at least we aren't hurting them, but then, most of them appreciate that we aren't too loud.

Notes

 

[RBH]

I believe that playing overly loud makes me walk out of venues, that I'll never go to again. I stopped seeing one band that I absolutely love to see, I've been to there shows 7-8 times , but have refused to ever see again because of 2 occasions where they blew me out of the room. I've traveled out of country to see this band. They are great performers. But - I won't ever pay to see them again. 

[craigb]

What? ?

[slartabartfast]

Of course it is unethical to subject anyone to damage from your actions if it can be avoided. It surprises me that no one seems to have tried to fix liability on the deep pockets (typically the venue owner) for this kind of injury. True, the damage is cumulative, not widely appreciated, difficult to link to a particular incident,  and partly the result of the (usually) voluntary participation of the injured, but that was the case with the tobacco lawsuits that cost the cigarette companies millions. Liability issues aside, why would a musician want to damage anyone's hearing? It is also a mystery why regulatory agencies that often strictly enforce regulations designed to prevent low risks like fire prevention, ignore this clear and present danger in the "ordinary" operation of a facility. I do not recall ever seeing anyone walking around with a dB meter at a concert, although apparently you do. As a practical matter, musicians often have little control over the volume of the stuff that comes out of the speakers or how close to them the seats are placed, but it is an issue they should raise with the responsible parties if it is warranted. I would think that the partly deaf patrons who often demand that their disability be catered to by amping up the output regardless of the damage it will cause to the still intact hearing of other audience members should also be aware and considerate. 

[Notes_Norton]

I bring a SPL meter to the gig. Actually I bring two (one for myself and one for my partner). In addition to monitoring volumes in the audience, I periodically test the stage volume as I have control of my monitor's volume. Volume is a drug to musicians and I can tweak the volume of the monitor over 85db simply because it feels good. The SPL meter keeps me in check.

Legal issues didn't occur to me, but I can see them. I figure it would be hard to win though both for the reasons slartabartfast mentioned plus how could you prove that the person initiating the suit isn't listening to music over 85db in his/her car or with the TV at home.

I just don't feel right harming another person unless it's self-defense.

Other volume offenders are movie theaters (bring your earplugs), lawn mowers (I always use ear plugs when mowing), other power tools, aerobics rooms in health clubs, etc.

My wife used to take an aerobics dance class in a health club. The music volume approached 110db. She wore her 25db musicians ear plugs. A health club damaging people's ears has no business calling themselves a health club.

I don't carry a SPL meter wherever I go, but after 40 years of keeping the volume on stage to 85db I have a good perception of when it is over 85. When I go to hear another band, I bring my musicians ear plugs, and if it gets too loud, I walk out. The only concerts I go to now are symphonies, and have learned to sit in the back. Sound decreases with distance. Still I bring my 15db ear plugs.

I did bring my SPL meter to a competing duo's gig. It was by their request (they are friends as well as competitors). I reported the volumes which ranged from about 80 to 95 and he decided to buy a SPL meter before the next gig.

As I said, I don't feel right harming an innocent person. Besides for that, I love my audience, they are like extended family to me. Some of them have been following us for decades. Why in the world would I want to inflict permanent harm on them? (No need to answer)

Insights and incites by Notes

 

[Gswitz]

Has to be loud enough to scare away the dweebs. ?

[Notes_Norton]

As I mentioned before, I don't carry a sound level meter with me.

But I do have an app for that on my phone. Because each phone is different, you have to calibrate it. I did this with white noise, pink noise, my stereo system and comparisons to my SPL meter at 85db. It's enough to give a rough estimate.

But since the mic and electronics don't register much over 90db, it's limited. But at least I know when it's over 85db which starts the danger zone.

Notes

[Toddskins]

In all seriousness, it makes no sense to me that bands insist on using a PA system when playing venues the size of a diner, cafe, or coffee shop. 

The vanity of the singer, and out of touch with reality of the band, thinking they are playing coliseums,  is what causes them to lose another patron - me.

An audience in a room those sizes, can hear waitresses gossiping and complaining from 60 feet away.  A singer does not need a mic and PA system.  But they will never even consider the truth.  Even with a band, the singer really does not need a mic.  And when it's just a couple of acoustic guitarists, even more so the PA system is not needed.

What a joy it would be to hear some musicians playing without using a PA.  I mean it would be fantastic to find since it's more rare than a perfect emerald.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Toddskins

[Notes_Norton]

I would suspect some singers want a mic for the fx. It's easier to hear yourself that way, especially for singers who don't have proper training.

And as I said before, volume is a drug for musicians. Music just sounds better when it is loud.

We often play at one particular yacht club. We start playing during their cocktail hour, then a dinner set and later a dance set.

During the cocktail and dinner sets we play at 65dba at the PA speakers. We can hear people talking over our music. But that's OK with us. The function of the cocktail set is for people to converse. When I go out to eat I like to talk to the people at the table with me. Then when the dinner is done, we crank it up to about 85db on the dance floor, the people mob the floor and when the night is over they thank us for a wonderful evening and often comment about the volume being just right.

A second yacht club we play is completely different. They put us in a tent in the parking lot and call it 'dancing in the street'. Since it's outdoors, we turn the volume up right from the start, but not loud enough to hurt their hearing.

Every gig is different and it is up to the professionals (us since we are getting paid) to analyze the gig and play appropriate music at appropriate volumes.

I would also appreciate a singer with no mic if accompanied by non-amplified acoustic guitars.

I stress non-amplified even though I shouldn't, because around here I hear guitarists "going acoustic" by putting the electric down and picking up a flat top guitar with a pickup and plugging it into an amp (I'm sorry, that isn't acoustic but I know better than try to explain it to them).

Insights and incites by Notes

[bayoubill]

I’m mostly deaf now. Without hearing aids I can’t hear pronunciation. Everything is very muffled. Some of it is from the flight line. Most of my hearing loss is due to playing next to drummers, trumpet, and trombone players so them I say in a sarcastic way

thank you very much

[John K]

Ouch Bayou...

We were fukin ignorant back then.

My road to partial deafness was in the late 60's, early 70's.  Young stud immortal, felt the hearing going down slowly from a successful three piece 120 plus db acid band. Back then you didn't have to have any talent to get the chicks and the paycheck. You just had to be loud. We got lots of jobs but the employer always asking us to turn it don't so the paint don't peal off the wall. Thought I could survive to the distant ripe old age of 40 without consequences.

Started to use on occasion ear protection when the inner voice said to get real. Toilet paper soaked in water did the job.

One night, couldn't get to the bathroom in time to grab the toilet paper. The show went on and nuked everyone to the gills. Good performance but after the gig, I could not hear out of my left ear. 50 years of damage happened in one night. Realized also that hearing was associated with another positional sense, that half of your head was still there. Ran around for several days wanting to escape from my damaged body till I just learned to live with the loss.

Advice for the tender young pups out there. Protect your hearing. Once you lose it, it ain't coming back in this life.

John

 

[Toddskins]

On 11/15/2019 at 8:26 AM, Notes_Norton said:

A second yacht club we play is completely different. They put us in a tent in the parking lot and call it 'dancing in the street'. Since it's outdoors, we turn the volume up right from the start, but not loud enough to hurt their hearing.

So says you.  And your frame of reference is wrong.

You should not use "hurting" as the standard for playing music just a notch below.

What makes you think the people could not hear and enjoy the music in the street if it's coming across at 90 db?   If the music can be heard, it can be heard.  "Loudness", like you are referencing, means you have to yell to talk to your date and friends.  <shaking head>  It also means the music is too loud.

Just because a few people said to you "your volume was just right", does not mean it was so.   Had I and the people I hang with been there and been surveyed, our viewpoints would have been dismissed?  Many, many people don't speak up and complain because of bad rearing, and thinking their ideas are on the fringe when in reality they have no idea how accurate their assessment is and how beneficial it would be if they raised their voice and complained.  

There are always some yayhoos who ruin it for others.  A lot of immature people like music LOUD.  Probably because they don't know anything about conversation or have anything worthwhile to speak about, i.e. animals who party.

It's true about restaurant service, bad service in clothing stores, etc.  People usually refrain from complaining, when they should not refrain.   And how very often you are at a restaurant and a table is so loud in their talk that everybody is uncomfortable because they are "ignorant".

<sigh>

Edited November 17, 2019 by Toddskins

[Notes_Norton]

We each have our own viewpoint and ethics.

Me? I do not want to inflict permanent physical damage on the people who come to see me. IMO Not only is it like biting the hand that feeds me, but knowing my fans and talking with them year after year, they are like extended family to me.

I feel I'm responsible, I'm the pro, I know the limits, they should trust me.

 

 

[slartabartfast]

Toddskins,

I took the phrase "hurt their hearing" to be "injure their hearing" rather than to cause pain, but you point is well taken. Ear protection is certainly not the desirable aesthetic criterion for the volume of a performance. 

Your other point: " A lot of immature people like music LOUD.  Probably because they don't know anything about conversation or have anything worthwhile to speak about, i.e. animals who party.," raises an interesting question. Is the performance intended to be the background music for what is primarily a venue for conversation?  Clearly a dedicated concert is not, nor is a movie theater. An elevator clearly is not designed as a music venue,  and a restaurant probably falls somewhere in between.  If a musician is unfortunate enough to be performing live in a restaurant, it is probably tempting to play loud enough to discourage conversation, if not to drown it out. In a free-for-all venue like a hard partying  country western bar, it is probably probably part to the ambiance to add to the mayhem with too -loud music. Shouting in such places is probably how people like to communicate, if not with broken bottles and fisticuffs. In places where normal conversation is expected, I would agree that the contracted musician just has to realize that his work is not considered that important by the owners or patrons, swallow his ego and accept the money in lieu of appreciation of his work.

 

[Ampfixer]

I was at a Rush concert decades ago and the SPL at the board was running around 130 dB.  Back then most of my repairs were 100 watt heads. Today people want 15 - 20 watt combos. The  successful campaign against drinking and driving, combined with anti smoking has pretty much turned traditional indie venues into fern bars. The loud stuff is now dance clubs only.

People have a responsibility to care for themselves. On the odd chance that I go to a concert I carry ear plugs just in case.

[Gswitz]

I carry ear plugs.

But i also love a truly loud show.

There are times i don't want to talk. 

And i had a stereo with an active/passive button on the preamp. Loved that thing. Hit the button and conversations stop. It was awesome. Just the right volume but a hint too loud for easy conversation.

I think I'm lonely in this group, but i like loud. I like to feel it. And real loud seems so much more controllable than headphones. I think I'm more likely to damage my hearing with headphones than my amp.

[craigb]

As usual, I'm just a weird one.  I've been to some very loud concert/gigs, I was the dumb kid who wore headphones while listening to rock at full volume, I hung out with some guys who had drag-racing cars with my head right under the hood during revving, I used to love fireworks and big firecrackers, I went to NASCAR races and sat in the front (I even drove a NASCAR car around Fontana Speedway at 170mph) - all without hearing protection.  But, the worst, were the illegal underground clubs I went to in Los Angeles (including doing the lighting for some of them).  I still remember seeing a girl with hair down to her butt holding onto both sides of a large speaker cab (these were arranged in a 3x3 configuration) and the air being pushed out was blowing her long hair straight back!  72,000 watts will do that.  The loudness was like a drug (especially things like playing an A chord in front of a cranked Marshall full-stack!).  Heck, I even loved listening to jets (including the military kind I was supposed to fly).

I had the ringing afterwards, I had tinnitus, I had hearing loss (and excessive wax), I'm lucky I never burst an eardrum.

However, in complete opposition to some of the comments I read above, I was able to repair the damage, and I currently have far better hearing than most people my age.  I've "fixed" or improved enough things that I'm firmly convinced just about anything is possible (and this "knowing" is key to getting results).  I've regrown disks in my back that had degenerated together (the doctor even said "That's impossible!" while looking at the x-rays proving the opposite).  I also just had my vision checked last week and it's still 20/10 (i.e., better than the so-called "perfect" 20/20).  Not bad for someone on the north side of 55!

Here's one link for hearing improvement (I used some of his recordings).

Unfortunately, most of the body's potential to be healed with natural methods is held back due to seemingly everyone (i.e., so-called Professionals) putting financial agendas above healing.  The FDA is pretty much owned by the large Pharmaceutical companies and will not approve anything that will cure or prevent.  They only approve "treatments" which basically go after symptoms instead of causes.  Ever see the commercials?  There's always a long list of side-effects many of which sound worse than what the medicine is supposed to be treating!  No thanks.

[Toddskins]

1 hour ago, craigb said:

As usual, I'm just a weird one.  I've been to some very loud concert/gigs, I was the dumb kid who wore headphones while listening to rock at full volume, I hung out with some guys who had drag-racing cars with my head right under the hood during revving, I used to love fireworks and big firecrackers, I went to NASCAR races and sat in the front (I even drove a NASCAR car around Fontana Speedway at 170mph) - all without hearing protection.  But, the worst, were the illegal underground clubs I went to in Los Angeles (including doing the lighting for some of them).  I still remember seeing a girl with hair down to her butt holding onto both sides of a large speaker cab (these were arranged in a 3x3 configuration) and the air being pushed out was blowing her long hair straight back!  72,000 watts will do that.  The loudness was like a drug (especially things like playing an A chord in front of a cranked Marshall full-stack!).  Heck, I even loved listening to jets (including the military kind I was supposed to fly).

I had the ringing afterwards, I had tinnitus, I had hearing loss (and excessive wax), I'm lucky I never burst an eardrum.

However, in complete opposition to some of the comments I read above, I was able to repair the damage, and I currently have far better hearing than most people my age.  I've "fixed" or improved enough things that I'm firmly convinced just about anything is possible (and this "knowing" is key to getting results).  I've regrown disks in my back that had degenerated together (the doctor even said "That's impossible!" while looking at the x-rays proving the opposite).  I also just had my vision checked last week and it's still 20/10 (i.e., better than the so-called "perfect" 20/20).  Not bad for someone on the north side of 55!

Here's one link for hearing improvement (I used some of his recordings).

Unfortunately, most of the body's potential to be healed with natural methods is held back due to seemingly everyone (i.e., so-called Professionals) putting financial agendas above healing.  The FDA is pretty much owned by the large Pharmaceutical companies and will not approve anything that will cure or prevent.  They only approve "treatments" which basically go after symptoms instead of causes.  Ever see the commercials?  There's always a long list of side-effects many of which sound worse than what the medicine is supposed to be treating!  No thanks.

While I view your viewpoint (which by your own admission is deemed to be "like drug use")  as really saying all that needs to be said,  I am intrigued by your information about hearing therapy.

Looking over the map of practitioners and consultants, the closest to me is on the other side of my state next to  Kansas City, unfortunately.

Question:  Roughly, what is the breakdown of cost for this? 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Toddskins

[Notes_Norton]

True, people have to be responsible for their own health. But most people don't know that they are in an ear damaging situation nor do they carry a SPL meter with them.  So if we are to play loud, should we warn them so they know?

Sometimes we play for dinner sets where people want to talk. They also listen. That's OK.

Sometimes we play where people want to dance. That's OK.

Sometimes we play on stage in a concert and actually put on a themed sho. That's OK too.

People use music in different ways, and since I do this for a living, it's up to me to supply them with their needs at the time.

And even in the concert situation, I don't hit the first row louder than 85dba.

It's just about being kind and caring not to injure the people who come for a good time.

Bob

 

[craigb]

5 hours ago, Toddskins said:

Question:  Roughly, what is the breakdown of cost for this? 

As I just replied in a PM to Bob, I started this in the late 80's then added other tools (from varying levels of clinical reputation - lol).  So, whatever the costs were, I'm sure they have changed.

The main thing is this: Not all of the perceived damage is permanent and maybe all of it can be corrected.  My biggest beef with "official" medical community is when they make offhand comments to their patients like "You'll probably have to live with hearing loss for the rest of your life."  This is really a very effective form of hypnosis where a suggestible subject absorbs a statement they take as fact from a medical professional that they've been conditioned to believe.  I was shown many examples of this in College.