The inexplicable wretchedness of trying to use the drum pane

[aleo]

David,

With regard to annoyance 2, I didn't explain this clearly.  I was referring to the pane to the right of the Drum Notes pane where you have the time grid with the colored rectangles representing notes, except in this case they represent beats or hits on the various percussion instruments when you've selected Show Notes with Duration.  If you select Session Drummer 2 from the New Drum Map list and Show Note Names, the colored rectangles contain the names of the various drum kit pieces e.g., Bass Drum, Snare, High Conga, etc.  When you select Session Drummer 2 Default you get the Drum Note pane on the left, and the rectangular notes on the time grid to the right, but it will not show the names of the kit pieces even when you've checked Show Note Names.   My point was if the Bakers could find a way to do this it would make editing the drum beats easier, like it does when you're editing notes in a MIDI track.

With problem 3, your solution is a good one, I've done something similar with my Templates folder.

I'm grateful to Starship Krupa for bringing the Drum Map feature to everyone's attention in the Forum.  I hadn't worked with Drum Maps for more than a year, but I remember the fun I had working with it back when I was using SONAR X3, and I began to get some new ideas for using percussion in some of the compositions I've been working on.   That's why I think it's important for the powers that be in Cakewalk to make some improvements here.  If the feature is fun to use and fairly easy to learn it will attract more users and new customers.

 

[Starship Krupa]

On 11/15/2024 at 8:53 AM, David Baay said:

I think '"Add Drum Map" would be more accurate.

"Add Drum Map" or "Use Drum Map," either of them would be way better than "New Drum Map."

If needing to look in an entirely different area of the program (Inspector or Console) doesn't stop the inexperienced user, then "I don't want to make a new drum map, I want to use an existing one" is waiting for them to trip over (in two senses of the word).

[David Baay]

17 hours ago, aleo said:

If you select Session Drummer 2 from the New Drum Map list and Show Note Names, the colored rectangles contain the names of the various drum kit pieces e.g., Bass Drum, Snare, High Conga, etc.

You only get note names in the notes if no drum map is applied. But I understand now the request is to have this happen with a drum map applied which should be fairly straightforward and would be nice.

[Starship Krupa]

22 hours ago, aleo said:

I'm grateful to Starship Krupa for bringing the Drum Map feature to everyone's attention in the Forum.  I hadn't worked with Drum Maps for more than a year, but I remember the fun I had working with it back when I was using SONAR X3, and I began to get some new ideas for using percussion in some of the compositions I've been working on.   That's why I think it's important for the powers that be in Cakewalk to make some improvements here.  If the feature is fun to use and fairly easy to learn it will attract more users and new customers.

This.

One of the reasons that I keep bashing my poor head against this is that when I can get it to work, the Drum Pane is great to work with. I prefer a view and workflow that's designed to work with percussion, showing "hits" rather than rectangles of varying length.

The way that you can rearrange where the instruments are vertically just by dragging and dropping is handy (I like to group kick, snare and hats together), being able to mute or solo individual instruments is useful, the way the notes/hits show the velocity right on them is very useful, and easier to see than the plain piano roll.

I know the general consensus is that it's easier to just use an instrument definition, and when I talk about the feature, I usually only talk about having the note names on the left, but the Drum Pane has more to offer than just note names. About the only thing I'd change would be the bland grey-on-grey text and background of the note list. Something easier to read.

I also like the "external hardware on channel 10" version and wish that it were easier to access.

[JnTuneTech]

Well, in reading this thread over several weeks now, I seem to glean only that everyone has differing tastes on working with percussion MIDI in CbB & Sonar. So far I can only agree generally about the definite issues of naming conventions, and challenges learning/discovering the drum map and PRV note name toolset itself.

I began many moons ago discovering MIDI mapping tools, and have since lost the taste for default sample maps and drum grid views, but that's not to say I won't use them, when it seems the best fit for the material being edited.

I do find that any time a drum map view seems empty, it will be a view setting carried over from a previous session, or just a wrong track output assignment/selection. I get what I click, though there are the odd times when editing a drum map that the PRV doesn't immediately update when doing modifications. I then close, re-open. A few clicks.

As others have stated, understanding & organizing the maps & templates is a bit clunky, -once you finally learn how they are set up by default, of course, and that selectively changing that helps a lot. For me doing that also helps backup the data, though it's never as critical as realizing the exact drum map(s) you want are saved within each project anyway.

Whether it's little rectangles, or asterisks, note views can be entirely up to each project, so it seems good there is a choice. Sorting the view really seems to be the key tool to have, for me. I mostly hate the default instrument mapping in drum synths, and am happy to do away with duplications and have only instruments I need for the project at hand, organized by my tastes. I happen to mostly prefer using note value views (rectangles), as I use them in varying sizes to visually emphasize certain aspects of dynamics, not to mention that several samplers I use have uses for varying note values on select instrument notes.

Everyone has their comfort zone, but drum maps did seem a bit complex to me at first. I don't know if that could quite be called wretchedness, but that is a colorful way of putting it!

 

Edited November 18 by JnTuneTech
clarification...

[Starship Krupa]

On 10/26/2024 at 4:40 PM, Starship Krupa said:

my favorite visual drum editing view in Cakewalk-land is the diamonds one I can only get if I map to an external MIDI port.

Hmm. I haven't tried to do this in years, and now I can't remember exactly what steps I did that ended up with the colored diamonds.

I'm sure I saw a third drum editing display type, it wasn't the rectangular blocks of the standard PRV or the squares-with-velocity tails of the Drum Pane. And I recall that it only showed up when I had the MIDI channel output set to 10.

Can't find anything about it in the Reference Guide except a passing reference to specifying that an instrument is a drum instrument in the instrument definitions maker. I stumbled upon it by accident while flailing, but since it didn't output to a virtual drum synth, it wasn't something I could use.

@Base 57, am I misremembering this? Isn't there a third display for drum editing? And I don't mean in Staff View. It was very crisp and used (green, I think) diamonds to represent drum hits.

Was it something my mind conjured up out of frustration?

[JnTuneTech]

16 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

I'm sure I saw a third drum editing display type, it wasn't the rectangular blocks of the standard PRV or the squares-with-velocity tails of the Drum Pane. And I recall that it only showed up when I had the MIDI channel output set to 10.

Pardon my adding in here, but it sounds like you are both referring to the PRV display when the MIDI track's output selection is using a mapped instrument definition, and one that has the programming note @Starship Krupa mentioned to force display of the notes as percussion.

-In the example above, I also went into the right-click menu for the keyboard/note names section, and changed the default, which was blank at first.

 

 

-The option to set this up does only come around when you are selecting a hardware output, AFAIK. It can be done via the "Configure..." option in the dialog as represented above, or from Preferences > MIDI > Instruments.

-It can be setup without an actual hardware port, by using a virtual port (such as loopMIDI, etc.) , or, if you are not needing to monitor the playback of the notes (I know some folks who can write music without hearing it first {not me!}, you can also use the mapping temporarily (see the Save Changes... checkbox) on an existing hardware port to experiment if you like.

In the examples above, I have used default instrument/note definitions included in Cakewalk products for years now. The ones that have "drums" in the name usually have the percussion view flag enabled.

 

Now, I wanted to follow on to a previous post here, and state that while note mapping can be handy, and with time & patience (!) can be created/edited manually, I still find that creating/modifying a Drum Map is what I choose for in-depth day-to-day drum programming. It gets me the note names and selected organization in a few steps.

I also prefer standard note view in PRV for drums, as it gives me the option of creating note lengths that help me see the intended dynamics - as it would be in an actual Piano Roll for say a player piano or music box. -But that's just me. In any case, there are lots of choices, and I only wish I had been able to learn these things more quickly when I was getting started. That still frustrates me - finding examples & detailed, easy to search documentation using real-world procedures. -Of course, I am just slow sometimes, I will easily admit.

[Starship Krupa]

2 hours ago, JnTuneTech said:

it sounds like you are both referring to the PRV display when the MIDI track's output selection is using a mapped instrument definition, and one that has the programming note @Starship Krupa mentioned to force display of the notes as percussion.

Yes, he/I did mention that, but at the time, I hadn't tried it in years because I don't use external drum modules. And it doesn't seem I can get it to work with soft synths.

I since sorted it out and can use that display if I want, but since I can only get it to work when mapped to an external port, it's not really useful.

[Amberwolf]

-

35 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said:

Yes, he/I did mention that, but at the time, I hadn't tried it in years because I don't use external drum modules. And it doesn't seem I can get it to work with soft synths.

I since sorted it out and can use that display if I want, but since I can only get it to work when mapped to an external port, it's not really useful.

Does a midi loopback driver count (to Sonar) as a hardware port for this purpose? 

If so, you could set the port output for that track to a loopback ouptut port (I use the Nerds.de one, but there are at least a few out there), and then set the synth's input to the loopback input port.

 

(assuming your synths operate as required when "wired" this way; they should, but....)

[JnTuneTech]

22 hours ago, Amberwolf said:

Does a midi loopback driver count (to Sonar) as a hardware port for this purpose? 

If so, you could set the port output for that track to a loopback ouptut port (I use the Nerds.de one, but there are at least a few out there), and then set the synth's input to the loopback input port.

Not typically, no. In general, a virtual MIDI port utility provides a way to connect separate MIDI-aware applications running on the same PC, not within a DAW or app itself.

There are certain workarounds, but they are not likely what the OP here would be looking for. -If you do want to try something for fun (?) you can use a standalone version of a Drum Sampler/Synth (many provide both a VST and standalone implementation), and connect it though virtual MIDI port(s) to your DAW. Then one can use the port mapping & GM MIDI drums definition method outlined above. However, most of the time that would not be practical, and depending on your audio device & drivers, it may not work at all. Definitely a bad use of system resources.

The limitations of MIDI make "loopback" a bad word, because creating a MIDI feedback loop can really stop things cold, including the entire OS on your PC. -Now that would certainly qualify as "wretchedness" - at least in my book! 😅

[Amberwolf]

7 minutes ago, JnTuneTech said:

Not typically, no. In general, a virtual MIDI port utility provides a way to connect separate MIDI-aware applications running on the same PC, not within a DAW or app itself.

I've used nerds.de's loopback to feed data out of a MIDI track back into another MIDI track within the same project, to record things that can't be bounced (or don't work correctly when done that way, but work fine if you just send it out and back in).  Can't recall specifics of why I had to do that ATM, but Iv'e done it numerous times over the years.   

For this purpose, it's no different than connecting the out of your hardware midi port to it's in, and setting up the tracks so the outputting track is not getting input from that port (at least not on the same channel(s)) to prevent feedback. But I don't have to recable my setup to do it if I use the loopback.

(the nerds.de loopback has an autodetection for this so it won't cause a problem, and automutes the loopback if it happens; I know that works because I've made the usual mistakes now and then 😊 ). 

 

I just don't know if it will help with the drum display issue; I don't use that type of view so never tried it. 

 

[David Baay]

1 minute ago, Amberwolf said:

For this purpose, it's no different than connecting the out of your hardware midi port to it's in

That's right. Virtual MIDI port drivers working at the O/S level look just like hardware ports to Sonar, and you can apply an Instrument definition to them just like any hardware port. Only ports presented by plugins within the project cannot be used in this way.

[JnTuneTech]

12 minutes ago, Amberwolf said:

I just don't know if it will help with the drum display issue; I don't use that type of view so never tried it. 

If it works as you say, then the DAW should treat it like any other hardware port - so yes, one could get the percussion note view as outlined here earlier. However, the results still wouldn't seem worth the effort or resources involved, IMHO. But, yes if it works for you - carry on!

Edited November 24 by JnTuneTech
additional clarifications

[Amberwolf]

FWIW, if there is only one way to get a feature to work when you need it, and you do need it, then it doesn't really matter what effort or resources are involved--it's "worth it" because otherwise you can't do it at all.

So, if someone does need the view that only works with hardware ports but has a synth that has to be hosted in a track inside Sonar/CbB that they require that view to work on...they'd have to use this workaround (if it does indeed work, as I haven't tried it for that). 

 

While it would also then work with external synths (hardware or software standalone units), external stuff won't be loaded with the project, none of it's settings will be saved with the project, and the only way to "know" what the tracks that feed out to the external stuff are supposed to do (other than remembering all the details forever  which I probably couldn't do even later the same day 😊 ) is to make notes in the File-Info/stats window (if you want them to stay with the project and be there when you open it) about all the routing, patches, etc for that external stuff.   (this is also true of hardware synths/etc., and is really why I only use internally hosted stuff for quite a long while now). 

 

If there's some other easier way to do it, then sure, that easier way would work...but if there isn't....there isn't.

[HOOK]

This?  I couldn't work without it...🤣

 

 

 

[Starship Krupa]

50 minutes ago, HOOK said:

This?  I couldn't work without it...🤣

I actually like the drum grid view. It's setting it up and keeping it set up that harshes my mellow. Thanks to the advice and encouragement given by some of the people in this topic, that seems to be more often now.

I've learned better when it requires a chicken sacrifice rather than a goat, etc.

I ain't hatin', I think it's a fine editing paradigm, one that not all other DAW's have. If the drum grid was poop, I'd forget about it and wouldn't whinge about how tricky it is to get it to work.

[HOOK]

That drum grid vertical velocity handle on the note is literally one of about 3 unique things that Cakewalk does that keeps me from walking away.

[AxlBrutality]

I just want to hop in here and say I'm glad someone is still beating this drum (heh).

I also share the frustration of bring up issues with drum maps and the drum pane and having 800 people be like "well I just use the regular PRV".  Okay, well that's great, but please stop jumping in and encouraging devs to kick it to the back burner just because it doesn't affect you or you don't use it.  I mean this with all due politeness and respect, but  "I just use the PRV" isn't helpful to the discussion and doesn't encourage changes to be made.

Speaking more for myself here....some of us specialize in genres with typically far more complex and fast drum arrangements with a ton of subtleties (technical death metal, deathcore, etc.) where the drum grid is INFINITELY easier to work with when it comes to manual programming and adjustments.  We may not be the "norm", but we are not insignificant either.  NO ONE I know who works in these genres uses the regular PRV and regular note displays (in any DAW) for their drum programming.  (So @Starship Krupa, no, you are not alone and it's not "fallen out of fashion" in any way...it's actually MORE common now in certain genres than it ever was.)

The unintuitiveness and clunkiness of setting up new drum maps and even setting up the drum pane and getting it to work in new projects was definitely a barrier for me many years ago.  I had the advantage of a close friend and professional who primarily used Cakewalk at the time (he has since long moved on from Cake) to guide me through some of it, but it was still frustrating. 

I was then of course able to set up templates and simply copy/paste them over the years.

But I recently made the switch from AD2 to Krimh Drums and had to create new maps and templates and oh boy, that involved me going through a lot of the same nonsense all over again.  It reminded me of just how disastrous Cakewalk/Sonar is compared to other DAWs in how they handle MIDI drums in general.

For example, no one on planet earth seemed to have a drum map for Krimh for Cakewalk yet, so I had to create one.  Got everything input and saved after about an hour of work, only for nothing to work....because I wasn't aware that for some god forsaken reason, you have to pitch everything up two octaves when inputting your mapping values in Cakewalk.  Cakewalk does so many things here in a bizarre and outdated fashion from other DAWs and there's literally no way for a new user to know.  Only reason I figured it out is because that same friend from many years ago instantly recognized the issue because he's worked extensively with several DAWs and a half a dozen or more drum programs over the last 5-10 years.  Not everyone has a friend like mine.  Lol.

Many of these issues are little, stupid issues, but they add up and at the end of the day, many of us are musicians first and it interrupts our creative workflow.  But more to the point, we have been begging for specific and general changes to these system for literal years and we always go through the same cycle of devs "taking note" and "making plans" but it's the one system that has never actually been updated....and that's frustrating.

Edited December 11 by AxlBrutality

[Starship Krupa]

5 hours ago, AxlBrutality said:

I also share the frustration of bring up issues with drum maps and the drum pane and having 800 people be like "well I just use the regular PRV".  Okay, well that's great, but please stop jumping in and encouraging devs to kick it to the back burner just because it doesn't affect you or you don't use it.

Yeah. That's why I usually embed a request not to do that when I post these rants. But at the end of the day, they're just trying to help ease a user's frustration.

In a way, it builds a case for the Drum Pane really needing some attention, because it's this huge, and IMO, important, feature and it's so unfriendly to set up that most people have given up on it.

Obviously, initially a LOT of work went into that UI. And there's a lot to like about it as opposed to similar views in other DAW's. The velocity tails, the way that you can drag the individual kit piece names around, those are the things that keep me coming back to it. The Drum Grid itself is great, it's setting it up that is its own circle of hell.

So the fact that even multi-decade veterans have abandoned it speaks volumes.

5 hours ago, AxlBrutality said:

So @Starship Krupa, no, you are not alone and it's not "fallen out of fashion" in any way...it's actually MORE common now in certain genres than it ever was.

Heh, I know that, I was being ironic.

I mean, making beats and drum programming in general is its own industry these days.

I was thinking more of EDM when I typed that, I hadn't even thought of black metal, death metal, etc. I'll namedrop here, I used to play bass in a band with Jef "Wrest" Whitehead. AKA Leviathan. Freaking amazing drummer, he and I locked in way tight.

[David Baay]

5 hours ago, AxlBrutality said:

you have to pitch everything up two octaves when inputting your mapping values in Cakewalk.  Cakewalk does so many things here in a bizarre and outdated fashion from other DAWs and there's literally no way for a new user to know.

This is not the fault of CW. There is no standard for MIDI octave numbering. Greg Hendershott long ago chose to start numbering at 0, I assume just because that's the natural thing to do from a programming standpoint. This makes Middle C "C5".  So-called "Scentific Pitch Notation" calls it C4 and many keyboard manufacturers follow that convention, but not all, and synth develpers are also all over the map on this (pun intended). A fair number of them call Middle C "C3" so, yes, you would have to go up two octaves in CW. Fortunately, CW offers  a solution: "Base Octave for Pitches" in Preferences > Editing.