MIDI (Channel) Question - MIDI learn Plugin

[Astraios]

Why can't I address Sonar DAW plugins or VIs (soft synths) that have a MIDI 
learn function on different channels? To illustrate it concretely, here is an example: 

send MIDI CC20 on channel 4 to CufOff1 and 
MIDI CC21 on channel 4 to Reso1

 --> no problem... but now: 

send MIDI CC20 on channel 6 to CufOff2 and 
MIDI CC21 on channel 6 Reso2.

No matter how much I tinkered with it, it always seemed like the plugin couldn't 
differentiate between commands and both Cutoff controls and both Reso controls 
moved together... (what I don't want)

Then I tried this setup in FL Studio and lo and 
behold, it worked. So what do I have to do or what am I doing wrong that Sonar 
doesn't differentiate the channels and behaves as if the MIDI CC were "Omni"?

[Amberwolf]

1 hour ago, Astraios said:

Why can't I address Sonar DAW plugins or VIs (soft synths) that have a MIDI 
learn function on different channels? 

In my ancient (couple decade old?) SONAR version, I never found the option to do this either--Any CC (etc) from every channel on every port is received the same; can't be assigned differently within any specific destination. (I didn't explore it much, as I have never had a good control surface, just one of those really cheap and crappy Worlde things, whose controls are not reliable or easy to use).

Hopefully someone else has different news on later versions. 

[User 905133]

29 minutes ago, Amberwolf said:

In my ancient (couple decade old?) SONAR version, I never found the option to do this either--Any CC (etc) from every channel on every port is received the same; can't be assigned differently within any specific destination.

Interesting.  Maybe this is one of the differences between hardware synths and software synths. With hardware it was not uncommon to have channelized midi data work properly--notes, program changes, CCs, PB, MW, Aftertouch, etc. depending on the gear's MIDI implementation and settings.  I could be misremembering how MIDI data worked.  Or, maybe something changed along the way.  

If hybrid instrument tracks are split, is there the same issue with CCs?

ADDENDUM: Also, if the softsynth uses MPE, is it turn off?

 

Edited September 9 by User 905133
Additional question added

[Astraios]

I didn't even think it was possible that this was a problem with the DAW (Sonar/Cakewalk) and that's why I thought it was an inability of the plugin/softsynth. An astonished MIDI user stated on another forum that he had no problems with logic DAW in this regard...

FL Studio offers a differentiated MIDI out input - I don't think there is anything like that in sonar, but maybe there is a workaround?

Edited September 10 by Astraios

[Astraios]

19 hours ago, User 905133 said:

Interesting.  Maybe this is one of the differences between hardware synths and software synths. With hardware it was not uncommon to have channelized midi data work properly--notes, program changes, CCs, PB, MW, Aftertouch, etc. depending on the gear's MIDI implementation and settings.  I could be misremembering how MIDI data worked.  Or, maybe something changed along way.  

If hybrid instrument tracks are split, is there the same issue with CCs?

ADDENDUM: Also, if the softsynth uses MPE, is it turn off?

 

It has also never worked with hardware, not even 10 years ago. Apparently it's not a problem for cakewalk/sonar users...  😇 Sonar is not necessarily the favorite DAW for EDM and synth options 😁

Edited September 10 by Astraios

[User 905133]

2 hours ago, Astraios said:

It has also never worked with hardware, not even 10 years ago.

Based on what you say, I guess I was wrong.  I thought for sure Cakewalk software respected per channel MIDI commands (including CCs). If time permits, I will boot SONAR X1 and a multitimbral sound module to double check my memory.  If it works with one port, I will set up a second module port to see if there is any crossover of CCs from MIDI channels on one port to gear on the second port.
 

Quote

fl studio offers a differentiated midi out input 

I am curious, what is a differentiated midi out input? Is that a feature that takes midi data that comes in on one channel/port and echoes it to a different channel/port either?  If so, how does that differ from the [ I ] and [ O ] track control parameters?

Edited September 10 by User 905133
changed "second module" to "second port" since the M-GS64 has 2 MIDI IN ports.

[Astraios]

It might work with two external remote hardware controllers, but I couldn't manage it with one remote hardware controller. The example I listed at the beginning can also be carried out by one device only. and I'd be curious to see if anyone can get this to work... 

However, in "Envelope Mode" you can tell Sonar that CC20 is polarized to channel 1,2,3 or 16. Sonar does not offer this function in a MIDI learn routine of a plugin, while FL Studio and Logic do. But I'm not enough expert, so I'm worried that forum-people here will kick me in the balls...  😗

 

Edited September 10 by Astraios

[Astraios]

Is this possible in Sonar - please show me...

If Sonar could do this, would be great...

 

 

Edited September 10 by Astraios

[Amberwolf]

10 hours ago, User 905133 said:

Based on what you say, I guess I was wrong.  I thought for sure Cakewalk software respected per channel MIDI commands (including CCs). If time permits, I will boot SONAR X1 and a multitimbral sound module to double check my memory.  If it works with one port, I will set up a second module port to see if there is any crossover of CCs from MIDI channels on one port to gear on the second port.

You can have data recorded on a track in clips that sends different channels different data and a VST synth or external hardware that is capable of using that should respond correctly.

 

But AFAIK you can't assign different controls on a VST (etc) to be automated by different channels of the same CC/etc.   That's what the OP wants to do, AFAICT.  I'd love to be wrong on that one. (I don't need the feature at present, but I can imagine there are people that do). 

[User 905133]

46 minutes ago, Amberwolf said:

You can have data recorded on a track in clips that sends different channels different data and a VST synth or external hardware that is capable of using that should respond correctly.

But AFAIK you can't assign different controls on a VST (etc) to be automated by different channels of the same CC/etc.   That's what the OP wants to do, AFAICT.  I'd love to be wrong on that one. (I don't need the feature at present, but I can imagine there are people that do). 

If Cakewalk's automation is not done per channel, that is a totally different matter from what I used to do with hardware sound modules.  I recorded CCs (and other parameter controls) on MIDI Tracks.  

On 9/9/2024 at 4:10 PM, Astraios said:

Why can't I address Sonar DAW plugins or VIs (soft synths) that have a MIDI 
learn function on different channels? To illustrate it concretely, here is an example: 

send MIDI CC20 on channel 4 to CufOff1 and 
MIDI CC21 on channel 4 to Reso1

 --> no problem... but now: 

send MIDI CC20 on channel 6 to CufOff2 and 
MIDI CC21 on channel 6 Reso2.

No matter how much I tinkered with it, it always seemed like the plugin couldn't 
differentiate between commands and both Cutoff controls and both Reso controls 
moved together... (what I don't want)

Then I tried this setup in FL Studio and lo and 
behold, it worked. So what do I have to do or what am I doing wrong that Sonar 
doesn't differentiate the channels and behaves as if the MIDI CC were "Omni"?

I see nothing in the OP about Cakewalk's Automation System, so I didn't assume that's what he was using. 

With hardware synth modules, I used MIDI tracks.  With software synths I either use the same method, or I use external parameter controls. 

Previously, I have noted issues with MIDI in connection with the Inspector-based Arpeggiator.  I gave up on that.  So if what the OP is talking about is something similar, I can understand that. 

I stand by my comments posted above.

BTW, I set up a single module (a Roland M-GS64 which has two MIDI IN Ports) in SONAR X1 PE and so far I have been able to have MIDI tracks going to each port (patch changes, note data, and CCs) without X1 getting confused (i.e., sending CCs intended for Port A to Port B).

 

 

Edited September 11 by User 905133
fixed typo

[Amberwolf]

The point I was making (and I think what the OP is) isn't about the automation system itself (which does have a channel picker in the envelope creation dialog)...it's that if you are attempting to assign (midi learn, etc) a control in a synth, there isn't a way to pick which channel that control is on, so you can't use the same CC (regardless of source) from different channels to do two different things.

So, if you have for example two faders (say, on two different hardware modules) that are both locked to the same CC but you can set each module to be on different channels, then you cannot use them to control two different things in the same synth. 

Like if you wanted to use a built-in non-assignable volume fader (CC7?) on keyboard 1 to control resonance, and the built in non-assignable volume fader (same CC#) on keyboard 2 to control delay time, etc.

 

It should be possible to remap a CC with an MFX plugin (if one exists; I don't seem to have one that can) so if you have this situation, you can put one of the faders on a different CC, so that it doesn't matter about the channel. 

 

EDIT: A quick google finds this post

http://forum.cakewalk.com/Midi-CC-Conversionrerouting-in-real-time-m3611481.aspx

pointing to this MFX by Tencrazy that should do it. (I thought I had all the TC MFX, but apparently not that one; I do now  )

http://www.tencrazy.com/gadgets/mfx/TcMfxCcMap64-14.zip

http://www.tencrazy.com/gadgets/mfx/TcMfxCcMap14.zip

 

EDIT2: I tried to test that one, but for some reason even though it correctly registers, SONAR doesn't see it.  Probably something about my setup since I seem to get other wierd issues; I'll keep poking at it.

I also found that MFXScript has a USER script called cc2cc, which probably does this job, but I have not tested it, either.  

 

Edited September 11 by Amberwolf

[Astraios]

15 hours ago, Amberwolf said:

The point I was making (and I think what the OP is) isn't about the automation system itself (which does have a channel picker in the envelope creation dialog)...it's that if you are attempting to assign (midi learn, etc) a control in a synth, there isn't a way to pick which channel that control is on, so you can't use the same CC (regardless of source) from different channels to do two different things.

So, if you have for example two faders (say, on two different hardware modules) that are both locked to the same CC but you can set each module to be on different channels, then you cannot use them to control two different things in the same synth. 

Like if you wanted to use a built-in non-assignable volume fader (CC7?) on keyboard 1 to control resonance, and the built in non-assignable volume fader (same CC#) on keyboard 2 to control delay time, etc.

 

It should be possible to remap a CC with an MFX plugin (if one exists; I don't seem to have one that can) so if you have this situation, you can put one of the faders on a different CC, so that it doesn't matter about the channel. 

 

EDIT: A quick google finds this post

http://forum.cakewalk.com/Midi-CC-Conversionrerouting-in-real-time-m3611481.aspx

pointing to this MFX by Tencrazy that should do it. (I thought I had all the TC MFX, but apparently not that one; I do now  )

http://www.tencrazy.com/gadgets/mfx/TcMfxCcMap64-14.zip

http://www.tencrazy.com/gadgets/mfx/TcMfxCcMap14.zip

 

EDIT2: I tried to test that one, but for some reason even though it correctly registers, SONAR doesn't see it.  Probably something about my setup since I seem to get other wierd issues; I'll keep poking at it.

I also found that MFXScript has a USER script called cc2cc, which probably does this job, but I have not tested it, either.  

 

Aaaha 🙃 ... and what to do with it?

[User 905133]

18 hours ago, Amberwolf said:

The point I was making (and I think what the OP is) isn't about the automation system itself (which does have a channel picker in the envelope creation dialog)...it's that if you are attempting to assign (midi learn, etc) a control in a synth, there isn't a way to pick which channel that control is on, so you can't use the same CC (regardless of source) from different channels to do two different things. [emphasis added]

Thanks for the clarification (remote control/MIDI learn).  That's why I specifically mentioned the discussion I raised years ago about the Inspector-based Arpeggiators:

22 hours ago, User 905133 said:

Previously, I have noted issues with MIDI in connection with the Inspector-based Arpeggiator.  I gave up on that.  So if what the OP is talking about is something similar, I can understand that.  [emphasis added]

For me it started with a problem with MIDI Learn/Remote Control which the deeper I looked into it seemed to involve an issue with channelization.

23 hours ago, Amberwolf said:

You can have data recorded on a track in clips that sends different channels different data and a VST synth or external hardware that is capable of using that should respond correctly.

But AFAIK you can't assign different controls on a VST (etc) to be automated by different channels of the same CC/etc.   That's what the OP wants to do, AFAICT.  I'd love to be wrong on that one. (I don't need the feature at present, but I can imagine there are people that do). 

[emphasis added]

Apologies if I misunderstood your statement to be referring to Cakewalk's automation system.   

I am aware of at least one DLL/VST3/Standalone software maker that has what I consider less than satisfactory MIDI Learn/Remote Control in that it is by default global/not channelized. 

On 9/9/2024 at 5:58 PM, Amberwolf said:

In my ancient (couple decade old?) SONAR version, I never found the option to do this either--Any CC (etc) from every channel on every port is received the same; can't be assigned differently within any specific destination. [emphasis added]

Taking "this" to refer specifically to MIDI Learn (especially in regards to plug-ins), I suspect there are also other issues that impact the ability of  third-party plug-ins to handle channelized CCs (and other MIDI data) without issues. As concerns my current test project with SONAR X1 PE, so far my channelizing has been done on the source end.  In other words, I set my usb keyboard to a specific MIDI channel. So, in both real time (when recording) and playback I have program changes, notes, and CCs on specific MIDI channels. Thus, there is no CC conflation.

BTW, while I had plans to explore the issues raised in this thread further with X1, plug-ins, use of remote control and then more up-to-date software, it seems you have found a third-party solution that might be just the thing the OP wants. So, I have put my explorations on hold (not to the back burner, but to the deep freezer!).   

I stand by my earlier comments as well as this post.

Edited September 11 by User 905133
fixed typo (and --> an); fixed a couple of punctuation errors

[User 905133]

1 hour ago, User 905133 said:

Thanks for the clarification (remote control/MIDI learn).  That's why I specifically mentioned the discussion I raised years ago about the Inspector-based Arpeggiators . . . .

For me it started with a problem with MIDI Learn/Remote Control which the deeper I looked into it seemed to involve an issue with channelization.

HIstorical note: Some of my original comments on the MIDI remote in conjunction with the Arpeggiator issue were brought up in this thread:

  

On 9/7/2020 at 4:03 PM, User 905133 said:

If I remember correctly, one idea I was pursuing that the problem had to do with the Arpeggiator's multiple channel ability. I don't remember the details, but if others are interested in the issue, I could try to retrace my steps.**    

**ADDENDUM:

I back tracked my explorations a little. The Inspector-based Arpeggiator is capable of sending data to one or multiple channels.  I suspect this ability interferes with the proper functioning of remote control MIDI.  For my intended usage I would prefer to not have the multi-channel ability on a single Arpreggiator and to have remote control working properly. That's why when I last explored this issue I was looking into MIDI data flow in order to make a feature request that would turn each individual Arpeggiator into a single channel function.

I believe that in order for it to have multi-channel abilities, it cannot respect channelized midi commands. Ergo, not a bug but a design decision.  

I could be wrong, though.

[emphasis added 2024-09-11 since it might relate to the issue of the conflation of channelized CCs]

Edited September 12 by User 905133
added a missing word ("issue")