Using Monster Drums with Existing Midi Song

[Greg P]

Hi all,

I have old Midi files (form the Cakewalk 9 days)  with various drum tracks as part of the songs and I'd like to use Monster Drums on the song. I'm struggling to understand how to add Monster Drums for use in an existing song. I watched Audio Tech TV's handy "How To Setup Multi Output Instruments in Cakewalk" Tutorial , set up a blank project and all works just fine tapping the pads in Monster Drums. But how do I modify an existing project to use Monster Drums? This is where I am stuck...

Help gratefully appreciated. 🤔

[JnTuneTech]

Welcome to the forum, and hopefully this will point you in the right direction. 😅

If I read into your question correctly, you seem to need info on changing an existing project to put Monster Drums in as an output to your existing MIDI - which can be very useful indeed.  If that is the case, let us in on what you currently have set to play the drum track (if anything at all), so we can point you to a few ways to do that. I can only assume that you may also need to map older, possibly GM formatted. drum MIDI parts, so that they will play your choice of drum sampler/synth. -If so, there are many options, starting with deciding whether to map the MIDI to the drums, or perhaps just map the drums to the MIDI. That's the 1st step, and your choices can vary depending on items such as whether you know the format of the drum MIDI you want to use, and whether or not your drum sampler/synth has built in mapping options.

In most cases, with Cakewalk I would recommend to start with learning to use the Drum Maps tool. It can make the process easier to visualize, and often you can find default maps to get you started. Then, learn how to find and use the instrument mapping available for your drum sampler/synth. Together you can create a clear, but flexible match up. -I used to be worried that the Drum Map tool was too difficult, but now actually, having opened it and actually tried it, starting on some older GM files, I have since found it to be a quick and easy way to visually check, and set up any older existing drum MIDI with a different sampler/synth rather quickly. -Of course, if you don't think you need that, then just change the output of your drum MIDI tracks to a different sampler/synth of your choice, hit play, and go from there. Everyone finds their favorite method, and just playing and/or mapping the MIDI is not going to wreck anything in the track itself. -I would recommend using copies of the original tracking though, just in case.

-As a note, in many cases much of the drum MIDI from the days you mention in your post was often GM (or a variant) formatted, and that is fairly easy to sort out. If your drum MIDI track comes set initially to MIDI channel 10. it is usually an indicator of that.  Even if it's not, you will be able to use the Drum Map tool to sort and label what you have fairly quickly.

Anyway, the goal, again if I read correctly, is to output, and possibly map the drum MIDI in the old files to the drum instrument assignments in a different sampler/synth, or vice-versa, and it will take some time, but in the end if you develop the mapping skills, it will get somewhat easier! Start by putting a Drum Map, and then a preset, on one of your older drum MIDI tracks, then have the track output to an instance of Monster Drums. Reference the Drum Map section in the Cakewalk documentation, and the mapping info for your sampler/synth, and give it a go!

Edited August 12 by JnTuneTech
additional clarifications

[Starship Krupa]

3 hours ago, Greg P said:

how do I modify an existing project to use Monster Drums?

You need to find a way to "tell" the MIDI track to use the Monster Drums track instead of whatever synth it's now driving.

We need more information before we can tell you exactly how to do it.

These old project files, what soft synth are they using now? Are these drum parts that you programmed yourself or are they part of a General MIDI file you obtained from a 3rd party?

As @JnTuneTech says, if the drum track is part of a GM file, it's a different process from when it's a drum track you programmed yourself.

In my opinion, the Drum Map Manager is a difficult tool to figure out, at least at first, and there are other options. It might turn out to be the right option for you, but we may be able to come up with something easier.

If you wish, you could even put a sample project up on a file sharing service for us to check out. That might be easiest if you find our questions confusing.

[user 905133]

8 hours ago, Greg P said:

I have old Midi files (form the Cakewalk 9 days)  with various drum tracks as part of the songs and I'd like to use Monster Drums on the song. I'm struggling to understand how to add Monster Drums for use in an existing song. I watched Audio Tech TV's handy "How To Setup Multi Output Instruments in Cakewalk" Tutorial , set up a blank project and all works just fine tapping the pads in Monster Drums. But how do I modify an existing project to use Monster Drums? This is where I am stuck...

Help gratefully appreciated. 🤔

Since I had no prior experience with the free Monster Drum plug-in, first I downloaded the latest version, unzipped it, placed it in the VST3 folder, and rescanned my plug-ins since I have CbB set up to do manual [on demand] plug-in scans. Then I found one of their libraries [I chose one of the Monster Ethnica library files], unzipped that onto an SSD, and then pointed the Monster Drum VST3 plug-in to use that library.

So far so good.  It seems to work as intended.

As the other CbB very experienced users have stated, to better help you above and beyond the general information they have already provided, more information would be useful.

8 hours ago, Greg P said:

I watched Audio Tech TV's handy "How To Setup Multi Output Instruments in Cakewalk" Tutorial , set up a blank project and all works just fine tapping the pads in Monster Drums. [emphasis added]

I haven't looked at the tutorial you recommend yet, but I would add one thing.  With the library you have chosen, I am not sure tapping the pads on the UI allow you to record MIDI note data.  In my experience, using a mouse to tap or press virtual triggers in a UI does not generate recordable note data. The library I chose to test has either a keyboard or various trigger pads depending on the preset. I was not able to change the plug-in itself to generate MIDI data from Cakewalk's Instrument plug-in window.

So, to record notes onto a Cakewalk Instrument Track assigned to Monster Drum, I used my usb MIDI keyboard.  Although I don't use CbB's Step Sequencer, I tested that and it works in the sense that I was able to (1) enter notes, (2) hear the notes, and (3) record the notes.  I seem to recall @Starship Krupa's posting some details about using CbB's Step Sequencer. Perhaps those might be useful to you. He even listed Monster Drum as a favorite in the Freeware Instruments Thread.

Thanks for mentioning this free plug-in. It looks like it has quite a number of libraries. I look forward to learning more about Monster Drum.

Edited August 12 by User905133
typos fixed; some excess words removed in the interest of clarity; added a missing word ("the")

[mettelus]

8 hours ago, Greg P said:

I'm struggling to understand how to add Monster Drums for use in an existing song.

If you insert Monster Drums into an existing song (as a "simple instrument" is probably the best start for you), then set the Output on an existing MIDI drum track to "Monster Drums" in the track view. If Monster Drums is GM mapped (most likely), then your MIDI track will start firing Monster Drums. You can Solo the Monster Drums track to check that out. Be sure to insert Monster Drums first, then it will be seen in the Output field on your existing MIDI track. Just in case your MIDI channels are set to Omni, once you verify Monster Drums is firing properly, you can then also Mute the original drum instrument you were using (so it will not fire by accident).

[user 905133]

Quote

New UPDATE of MONSTER DRUMS version 3.2024.05 is available for to download below ↓↓↓

. . .

Q : Why are the MIDI note numbers jumping ?
A : Because Monster Drums is GM (General MIDI) compatible plugin, so some presets have some distance-length MIDI note number according to THIS !

THIS [in the FAQs] is a link to a pdf of drum / note assignments (General MIDI PERCUSSION Key Map) at musescore.org

Edited August 12 by User905133

[Greg P]

Thanks to all for your responses, sorry I've taken so long to come back. Seems to me I didn't phrase my question too well, but before I explain a bit better, the good news is I have managed to get Monster Drums working correctly(?). But I seemed to have to do it by going through the process in Audio Tech TV's "How To Setup Multi Output Instruments in Cakewalk" Tutorial i.e. insert an instrument rack for MD, add several tracks for each type of drum instrument (with output to the created stereo "Drum Bus") etc. like below:

Then add Midi tracks per drum instrument like so, with output to Monster Drums:

So this works fine but seems like a lot of work to add all these 7 extra tracks to an existing Midi file, maybe I can create a template project and suck in the old Midi tracks to the template. Anyway, I'll play with that.

As suggested by mettelus, I tried just inserting MD as a "simple instrument" in an existing song, but only get a kick (I think), no other drum sounds, I tried fiddling around but eventually gave up, all too hard 🫤

I will start using drum maps, though: good suggestion.

For background, the old Midi songs I am editing were created in Cakewalk 9 using Roland (Endoril?) Virtual Sound Canvas as the "synth", with Channel 10 being used for GM drums. The songs were only used as backing tracks when I used to do one man band gigs, but I use them now just for practicing new songs at home. So that's it, nothing too complicated.

Sorry, this got a bit long, thanks again for the help, guys.

[mettelus]

53 minutes ago, Greg P said:

As suggested by mettelus, I tried just inserting MD as a "simple instrument" in an existing song, but only get a kick (I think), no other drum sounds, I tried fiddling around but eventually gave up, all too hard 🫤

I am not familiar with Monster Drums, so that may very well not be GM mapped. Another trick when mapping existing MIDI to a new instrument (I am "assuming" you have a single MIDI track with all of the kit pieces on it, i.e., one channel (?)... if not this gets more complex). If you expand out the Piano Roll View, you can run the mouse up and down the keys to fire off the kit pieces (to check what is where), and to move MIDI rows (kit pieces), you can 1) select the piano key (on the left) to select all of the data on that entire row, then 2) shift-drag (to preserve timing) that data selection onto the proper kit piece. When moving that row up/down, it should also be firing the kit pieces it passes over as you do so (be sure Input Echo is on).

When working with multiple channels is where that can get tricky (why OMNI is the default mode), but OMNI can also cause grief because every instrument in a project may be fired off as a result.

Edited August 13 by mettelus

[JnTuneTech]

18 hours ago, Greg P said:

For background, the old Midi songs I am editing were created in Cakewalk 9 using Roland (Endoril?) Virtual Sound Canvas as the "synth", with Channel 10 being used for GM drums. The songs were only used as backing tracks when I used to do one man band gigs, but I use them now just for practicing new songs at home. So that's it, nothing too complicated.

It's great that you got some of the drums instruments to play, sounds like you are well on your way. I will agree that using the multiple outs method may be a bit much, and you can certainly just achieve playback with only one stereo output on a drum sampler. Still, it can be useful later if you decide to convert each kit piece to audio for very granular mixing. -I happen to do that a lot, and am in fact currently using a project that splits the drum MIDI out into 6 separate parts, going to respective mixable outputs, and that comes in handy come mixdown time. But if that's not needed, just run one instance of the drum sampler, and point all drum (Ch. 10 in your case) MIDI outputs to the drum synth, use a standard primary stereo output from that, and it will be simpler, especially for previewing.

Some effort may be necessary to "fine tune" and get things to match up better (or at all), and although others may argue, I find that, especially once you know what MIDI input mapping your drum synth - kit is set up with (and that usually has options), it is a quick matter to add a drum map to a project, assign it to the drum MIDI track(s) one by one, and instantly have a view of what notes are there to be assigned to start out with. -There are other methods, to be sure, such as just using an instrument definition from the default GM sets to overlay on the basic PRV keyboard, for instance. But trying any of that is relatively painless, and if you don't find it useful, -just remove the map!

 

In keeping with some folks who like to explain step by step: I will take a project, or often just an older MIDI file opened and then saved as a project, and look at the MIDI track assignments. If there is a Ch. 10 MIDI track, chances are it contains GM drum MIDI, especially if it was formatted years ago, and especially if it has been assigned to a legacy GM multitimbral synth such as Sound Canvas. It is often even labeled "Drums" if you have opened the file directly.

So, I will now assign a GM (or usually Roland GS Standard) format drum map to the likely drum MIDI track material's track output. -You don't even have to have a synth plugged in at that point. Once the drum map is assigned to the MIDI track's output (it does involve a few steps at 1st), I close the Drum Map tool. Then, I select the MIDI track in question, and use PRV to see what is on the track visually.

If, as older MIDI files often are, the drum kit pieces (note numbers) used in the file are set up to GM standards, you will visually see notes in place that are already matching the GM template (kick, snare, etc.) in the map view. Anything else that is not, will show up as "unassigned".

From there, I usually refer to a working playback (audio, or other GM synth playback) version of the MIDI file/track, to figure out what is playing where the "undefined" notes show up. For most pop material, it's usually pretty simple. -The steps after that vary for me, depending on the drum sampler I want to use.

 

-There are other ways, and of course other issues too, as MIDI can have inline data that may change the actual playback parameters, and that won't show in a drum map.   -But getting the basic drum kit instrument piece assignments working with this method gets things started for me very quickly, with older GM standard formatted material. And even if it's not GM, you can visually make out the general patterns and label/assign them quickly.  Your mileage may vary, of course!

[Greg P]

Again, thanks for all the useful information. I have tried a couple more times just adding MD as a simple instrument track then creating a Midi drum track using Ch 10, but to little avail: I only ever get a kick bass. I did exactly the same thing with the Cakewalk SI-Drums and it worked perfectly. So I went back to the MD install instructions and this was hiding in plain sight:

"Monster Drums is now a multi-out plugin by default, so you need to set or enable your DAW’s multi-out capabilities. This feature allows you to put your own FX plugin on each sound according to your taste (google “how to set multi-out on [name of your DAW]”)." And this is why I started the whole multi-out procedure in the first place, but I also assumed you didn't have to have the multi-out; it could still work as a simple drum instrument. But it sounds to me like it can only work as multi-out.

So I've set up a template project with all the necessary drum mapping, stereo bus etc. and can use that for songs. However, being a bit slow - ahem - I have only just realized that MD (and SI-Drums) only has drum sounds, no percussion like congas, tambourine, cabasa etc. (unless you can get them via a kit program change...??***) so I will still need to use VSTSynthFont for "normal" sounds like strings, keys etc. plus percussion, and then use MD or SI-Drums for the basic drum kits if I want drum sounds which are better(?) than VSTSynthFont.

*** But I haven't yet figured out how to change the MD kit via a patch change. <sigh>

Oh yes, and I am using drum maps so I can see the kits on the piano roll rather than the piano keys. I have used the "GM Drums (Complete Kit)" drum map, but I'll try the Roland GS Standard map as JnTuneTech suggested.

Cheers all.

[Promidi]

2 hours ago, Greg P said:

*** But I haven't yet figured out how to change the MD kit via a patch change. <sigh>

In Cakewalk, for a plugin to respond to patch changes, use the VST2 version.

[JnTuneTech]

11 hours ago, Greg P said:

MD (and SI-Drums) only has drum sounds, no percussion like congas, tambourine, cabasa etc. (unless you can get them via a kit program change...??***) so I will still need to use VSTSynthFont for "normal" sounds like strings, keys etc. plus percussion, and then use MD or SI-Drums for the basic drum kits if I want drum sounds which are better(?) than VSTSynthFont.

I don't really know the MD plugin, in fact hearing that you found it to be advertised as "multi-out by default" is quite interesting. I do know that they do, as most samplers will, offer or have vendors for different sample sets, -"kits" of course, and sometimes additional percussion & whatnot. In my experience, loading different sample sets is not something you want to do by a program change. Generally, I will load a separate instance of the sampler to "add on" parts like percussion, for instance, and just point the instruments MIDI note(s) to the proper instance (kit) using either the drum map, or just pointing the proper MIDI track output specifically.

You haven't mentioned it, but I hope you have found out how each "kit" has its own note map - settings in the plugin itself as well. For instance, if the snare is not mapped to the GM number you want, you can either change the MIDI note(s) in the track, or just change the sampler "Kit piece" to respond on what mapping you want.

And yes, you will be looking for other sampler plugins to handle the rest of the melodic MIDI parts. Depending on how the tracks were composed originally, they may also be reliant on GM patch changes, which was very common, and as @Promidi mentioned, you are best off trying to stick with legacy VST2 plugins for the most compatibility with that. -As I mentioned in another thread here, Roland is still selling license keys for the Sound Canvas VA VST2 plugin through the end of September, but it is being discontinued in the cloud & support options going forwards. Otherwise, I would recommend that for a quick playback of older MIDI tracks with GM format & patch changes, etc., - and of course that one is not a free plugin either.

[Greg P]

Hi all again.

I think it's time to put this topic to bed because I have managed to set up MD so that I can use it either as multi-output or just as an old skool single GM Ch. 10 instrument track al la the old Roland VSC (I had thought of buying the latest version, but was put off because, as JnTuneTech said, it doesn't seem to have a future). I found out how to change the MD drum kit via a patch change.

To use as a single Ch 10 instrument track you have to set the output from the VST for all pieces of the kit to channel 1 (the default is channel 1 to 16, one per piece of kit), otherwise you only get the kick bass. However, if you then change the drum kit via a patch change, the outputs all default back to their original channel 1 to channel 16. So, it looks like changing kits in mid song wouldn't work so well (and it isn't something I'd normally do, really).

Setting up multi-output takes a bit of effort (might be easier ways, dunno) but then you have the ability to manage each piece of kit individually with effects etc. Probably could change kits mid-song if you wanted, but I haven't tried it.

Thanks again, help was much appreciated. 👍

Cheers