The Eternal Question: VST2 or VST3 and Nu Sonar?

[Resonant Serpent]

I'm leaning towards VST3 while I organize my plugins tonight. Any reason why I'd choose VST2 instead?

[Starship Krupa]

1 hour ago, Resonant Serpent said:

I'm leaning towards VST3 while I organize my plugins tonight. Any reason why I'd choose VST2 instead?

I only install the VST2 versions of plug-ins when I want to be able to use them in another program, such as Vegas Pro, that was late to support VST3's.

One note: for existing projects Cakewalk will want to use whichever version you originally used in the project. It will throw a warning message about a missing plug-in if the project used the VST2 version and only the VST3 version is installed.

Fortunately, you can have both installed but hide one from being available in new projects by using Plug-In Manager to exclude whichever version you don't wish to be available for new projects.

In very few cases, the VST3 version of a plug-in will have some kind of issue with Cakewalk whereas the VST2 version will work just fine. I have 2 such plug-ins.

Other than these gotchas, there is no reason to install the VST2 version when a VST3 version is available.

[Resonant Serpent]

By default I install VST2 and VST3 for backwards compatibility. The plan is to use VST3 in the trees I create with the plugin manager. If I load an older project that used VST2, Cakewalk won't barf.

[Starship Krupa]

3 hours ago, Resonant Serpent said:

By default I install VST2 and VST3 for backwards compatibility. The plan is to use VST3 in the trees I create with the plugin manager. If I load an older project that used VST2, Cakewalk won't barf.

If you set the VST2 versions to Exclude in Plug-In Manager, they'll still load in old projects, they're just hidden from display in the Browser and other places where you choose plug-ins.

[Promidi]

Both.  Sometimes VST3 does not play nice.

[CSistine]

For some VST3 plugins it is very cumbersome to use the presets in CbB (e.g. PluginAlliance). In those cases I still prefer to use the VST2 version.

The VST3 version of PSP InfiniStrip crashes in CbB on mono tracks (interleave = mono), VST2 runs without problems.

[57Gregy]

What's Nu Sonar?

[Starship Krupa]

10 hours ago, CSistine said:

For some VST3 plugins it is very cumbersome to use the presets in CbB (e.g. PluginAlliance). In those cases I still prefer to use the VST2 version.

In those cases, Plugin Alliance for instance, is it easier to use presets for the VST2 versions? I'm assuming you refer to the factory presets. If so, how is it easier?

I know that brainworx-made (Lindell, elysia, Shadow Hills, etc.) plug-ins use the canonical VST3 locations for factory presets, so in order to load a factory preset for those, you have to load them from the VST3 menu in Cakewalk's plug-in header.

For most of the Plugin Alliance brainworx-made ones, forum members, including me, have converted most of them to Cakewalk's native .spp format.

[CSistine]

9 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

In those cases, Plugin Alliance for instance, is it easier to use presets for the VST2 versions? I'm assuming you refer to the factory presets. If so, how is it easier?

It's easier, because you can choose them from the preset list on top of the plugin window!

9 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

I know that brainworx-made (Lindell, elysia, Shadow Hills, etc.) plug-ins use the canonical VST3 locations for factory presets, so in order to load a factory preset for those, you have to load them from the VST3 menu in Cakewalk's plug-in header.

It's true that they are in the standard locations, but in Cakewalk you have to click on the VST3 button, search to the respective folder and then select the preset and each time when you want to select another one you have to go thru the VST3 button. Very cumbersome! (In Reaper this is not an issue, because the VST3 factory presets are shown on top of the plugin window as with VST2 presets).

9 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

For most of the Plugin Alliance brainworx-made ones, forum members, including me, have converted most of them to Cakewalk's native .spp format.

Though this solves the problem it is a lot of extra steps you have to do for each plugin provider that does not have an own preset management built into its plugins! But YMMV!

Overall I dare to say that this is one of the big issues of VST3! Each plugin provider or DAW provider has to reinvent the preset system. With VST2 this was solved at least for factory presets.

[Starship Krupa]

13 minutes ago, CSistine said:

It's easier, because you can choose them from the preset list on top of the plugin window!

Ah, so they use the API that allows a host to query a plug-in dll for its presets. Having only ever installed the VST3's, I didn't know that brainworx did that.

That mechanism actually does exist for VST3's, but for some reason brainworx mostly don't use it.

I know of 2 Plugin Alliance plug-ins that do use it, Millenia NSEQ-2 and Lindell TE-100. They're VST3's and their factory presets show up right there in the Sonar preset menu. Go figure.

I've been lobbying the Cakewalk developers for years to have Cakewalk/Sonar read the .vstpreset files from the canonical folder locations and populate the Sonar preset menu, but my pleas don't seem to have gotten any traction. That's why we put together that project to make .SPP files for as many of them as possible. At some point beating your head against the wall becomes tiring, and the end result was the same, I get to have my presets in the Cakewalk Sonar menu.

Both Studio One and REAPER read the .vstpreset files from their canonical locations and populate their native preset menus with them automatically. I sure wish Sonar did.

1 hour ago, CSistine said:

Overall I dare to say that this is one of the big issues of VST3! Each plugin provider or DAW provider has to reinvent the preset system. With VST2 this was solved at least for factory presets.

If anything, the VST3 spec made it easier by specifying folders rather than having to embed the presets in the DLL's. All the plug-in installer has to do is drop the .vstpreset files in the right spot, all the host has to do is read the files. Simpler. The problem is that so few plug-in manufacturers actually follow that part of the spec. I would so much prefer to have plug-in presets show up in the hosts' own menus rather than having to hunt around the plug-in UI for the location of the preset manager.

In this case, at least, I can't blame the VST3 spec itself, rather the companies that failed to implement this part of it. Which is Cakewalk, some other DAW's, and the majority of plug-in makers. And as I said, the mechanism that VST2 plug-ins used to use still works for VST3 plug-ins. Very few use it though.....

[CSistine]

10 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said:

Ah, so they use the API that allows a host to query a plug-in dll for its presets. Having only ever installed the VST3's, I didn't know that brainworx did that.

That mechanism actually does exist for VST3's, but for some reason brainworx mostly don't use it.

I know of 2 Plugin Alliance plug-ins that do use it, Millenia NSEQ-2 and Lindell TE-100. They're VST3's and their factory presets show up right there in the Sonar preset menu. Go figure.

I've been lobbying the Cakewalk developers for years to have Cakewalk/Sonar read the .vstpreset files from the canonical folder locations and populate the Sonar preset menu, but my pleas don't seem to have gotten any traction. That's why we put together that project to make .SPP files for as many of them as possible. At some point beating your head against the wall becomes tiring, and the end result was the same, I get to have my presets in the Cakewalk Sonar menu.

Both Studio One and REAPER read the .vstpreset files from their canonical locations and populate their native preset menus with them automatically. I sure wish Sonar did.

If anything, the VST3 spec made it easier by specifying folders rather than having to embed the presets in the DLL's. All the plug-in installer has to do is drop the .vstpreset files in the right spot, all the host has to do is read the files. Simpler. The problem is that so few plug-in manufacturers actually follow that part of the spec. I would so much prefer to have plug-in presets show up in the hosts' own menus rather than having to hunt around the plug-in UI for the location of the preset manager.

In this case, at least, I can't blame the VST3 spec itself, rather the companies that failed to implement this part of it. Which is Cakewalk, some other DAW's, and the majority of plug-in makers. And as I said, the mechanism that VST2 plug-ins used to use still works for VST3 plug-ins. Very few use it though.....

I guess it is more likely that the VST2 spec really included the factory preset handling, because I never had a plugin/DAW that did not support it (100%)!

That's completely different with VST3, where there are just some kind of recommandations! This may also be the reason why many providers implemented their own preset system. IMHO, this is very awkward from the user view, it couldn't be more diverse as it is nowadays, absolutely no standard! This is the reason why I still blame the VST3 definition, Steinberg did a bad job in my opinion! 😄

Also VST3 is a PITA for the users, because the plugin substitution (vst2 > vst3) and the use of old versions (settings) is not handled in a well-thought-out way! I am sure that there would have been much better solutions to introduce some technical improvements!

[Starship Krupa]

2 hours ago, CSistine said:

I am sure that there would have been much better solutions to introduce some technical improvements!

Did you ever read my old humorous "description" of how Steinberg came up with the VST "standard?"

 

[CSistine]

I read it partly then! 😆 

Though today I've read the whole post! 😉

You have forgotten one thing happening in such software companies: 

Department head: "Okay, welcome John! As initial work as junior developer you will define the specification for VST4. After that I propose you specify and develop the new Software Manager program for our customers! These are 2 tasks that are independent of our former software and they are self-contained, that's why!"

I had experienced crucial jobs given to juniors several times in my development career! Horrifying!

[Starship Krupa]

Oh gawd yes!

"Hi everybody, this is Johnny Fuzznutz. He's completely new to our industry and has been brought in to develop this complex interoperability specification."

Let's tie our shoelaces together before the big race, eh?

As everyone else stands by, watching helplessly....

[Noel Borthwick]

15 hours ago, CSistine said:

In Reaper this is not an issue, because the VST3 factory presets are shown on top of the plugin window as with VST2 presets).

What factory presets are you referring to? Is there a standard location where they are stored? Are these external presets?

[Starship Krupa]

1 hour ago, Noel Borthwick said:

What factory presets are you referring to? Is there a standard location where they are stored? Are these external presets?

The .vstpreset files.

I've been feature-requesting about this for years, including with Cakewalk Next.

The VST3 spec outlines 3 different canonical locations for .vstpreset files. Sonar seems to understand where they are, because if a plug-in obeys the convention, loading a preset from the VST3 menu will go straight to the correct location.

I first discovered this with Plugin Alliance/brainworx products, they are the biggest company whose products don't include their own preset managers.

https://steinbergmedia.github.io/vst3_dev_portal/pages/Technical+Documentation/Locations+Format/Preset+Locations.html

Edited May 25 by Starship Krupa

[CSistine]

6 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

What factory presets are you referring to? Is there a standard location where they are stored? Are these external presets?

As far as I can see they are mostly in "Documents\VST3 presets\<provider>\<plugin>\*.vstpreset".

Edited May 25 by CSistine

[orcmid]

On 5/23/2024 at 9:26 AM, 57Gregy said:

What's Nu Sonar?

It's the Norwegian University version.  Doesn't everyone know that?  (Or just try saying it out loud.)