Patchbay questions

[Nick Blanc]

So, I have the following (luxury) situation:

I have a nice homestudio with lots of synths. My setup is 4xADA8200 (=8 inputs and 8 outputs per unit) connected to an RME Digiface via ADAT. Recently I decided to lose the last remaining money I have left and get into pedals (at least I'm not doing modular). I'm using 22 inputs at the moment, all synths and drummachines. Add some spare inputs I like to keep free for occational inputs like guitars, microphones, portable synths, etc. Let's say 5-6. That's 27. Which leaves me with 4-5 inputs left.

I bought 6 pedals, 4 of which are stereo. That's 10 inputs. I don't have those left, so I thought I'd get a patchbay. I liked the idea of quickly patching a synth to a pedal. Now I'm breaking my brain on how to do this.

In my mind, I can do 2 things:

            1          Connect (almost) everything to the patchbay and then to the ADA's. Use the patchbay to route the signals through the pedals.

            2          Connect everything to the ADA's and use the ADA outputs as sends for the pedals which loop back to an ADA input.

In scenario 1 I can freely route, but I cannot route every piece of gear I have to the pedals and I think (!! I don't understand patchbays that well) I can't use multiple synths to 1 pedal. Which is fine because that would merge the audio of those synths together and I like to keep them recorded separately.

In scenario 2 I can route max 30 outputs (I already use 2 for a headphone amp and I use the RME out to my monitors). So I could connect a maximum of 28 outputs from the ADA's to the patchbay. Then I could use every pedal as an external send fx or external insert fx (I use Ableton). With much room to spare. Then I could route the pedal outputs back into the patchbay and back into my open inputs on the ADA's. And I could route pedals into eachother, I think? But how should I connect this (to a half-normalled patchbay)?

I think scenario 2 gives me the most options. Am I missing something here?

[Wookiee]

What did the Ableton forum suggest?

CbB has an external FX plugin.

[Nick Blanc]

2 hours ago, Wookiee said:

What did the Ableton forum suggest?

CbB has an external FX plugin.

As does Ableton. So it's not the software side I'm unsure about. I have that working already. I'm still a bit on the fence on how I would wany my setup to be and if I'm overlooking or misunderstanding some aspects of working with a patchbay.

[Wookiee]

1 hour ago, Nick Blanc said:

As does Ableton. So it's not the software side I'm unsure about. I have that working already. I'm still a bit on the fence on how I would wany my setup to be and if I'm overlooking or misunderstanding some aspects of working with a patchbay.

You misunderstood my comment. 

I asked you, "What do the Ableton", your quoted DAW, "forum users say on the subject of patch bays? "

[Nick Blanc]

21 hours ago, Wookiee said:

You misunderstood my comment. 

I asked you, "What do the Ableton", your quoted DAW, "forum users say on the subject of patch bays? "

I haven't asked there. There seems to be plenty of expertise here and I haven't had a real sense of that when I browsed around there some time ago. 

[Glenn Stanton]

one way to do this:

1. have all your synth outputs and IO inputs connected in your first 2 patch bays (assuming 16 each) - this gives you what you need for directly recording the synths without changes (i would consider doing "normalled" as i could use a simply Y split cable if i need to "tap" off for some other reason like a "clean" vs" fx'd synth recording)

2. have your effects in another set of patch bays in/out wholly separated ("de-normalled")

3. you can now patch any synth to any effect w the caveat the effct patched in "breaks" the clean path and the effect is fully inserted in the path (i think this is typically the desired approach as many effects have "level" or "mix" controls to set how much of the effect is heard)

of course all of this depends on your workflow and if you need multiple inputs for a single synth + fx (as noted in #1).

generally my patch bays simply expose every in and out, and things like mic / instrument inputs are normalled to the IO. effects are all de-normalled for flexibility, and monitoring are also via the patch panel (for line levels) and all mics have XLR patch to avoid TRS insert while 48v phantom volt is on and forgot to turn it off ?

i used to use a spreadsheet to create the labels but it got painful because of 4 different brands of patchbays, so i bought "patchcad" which made life much much easier https://www.patchcad.com/ (just a happy customer).

 

Edited April 26 by Glenn Stanton

[Nick Blanc]

2 hours ago, Glenn Stanton said:

one way to do this:

1. have all your synth outputs and IO inputs connected in your first 2 patch bays (assuming 16 each) - this gives you what you need for directly recording the synths without changes (i would consider doing "normalled" as i could use a simply Y split cable if i need to "tap" off for some other reason like a "clean" vs" fx'd synth recording)

2. have your effects in another set of patch bays in/out wholly separated ("de-normalled")

3. you can now patch any synth to any effect w the caveat the effct patched in "breaks" the clean path and the effect is fully inserted in the path (i think this is typically the desired approach as many effects have "level" or "mix" controls to set how much of the effect is heard)

of course all of this depends on your workflow and if you need multiple inputs for a single synth + fx (as noted in #1).

generally my patch bays simply expose every in and out, and things like mic / instrument inputs are normalled to the IO. effects are all de-normalled for flexibility, and monitoring are also via the patch panel (for line levels) and all mics have XLR patch to avoid TRS insert while 48v phantom volt is on and forgot to turn it off ?

i used to use a spreadsheet to create the labels but it got painful because of 4 different brands of patchbays, so i bought "patchcad" which made life much much easier https://www.patchcad.com/ (just a happy customer).

 

Oooh right. Thanks for taking the time to be this elaborate. That second patchbay in de-normalled mode makes sense for FX. Indeed a pedal would be in the signal path (with mix control). I'm a complete newbie to this, so would this also allow me to use it as a send? So sending a (or multiple, in case I wanted to do this with more) daw output signal to a patchbay (as I would with a synth) and patching that signal to a pedal. That way I could use the pedals also for vst.

My brain hurts. But just a bit less thanks to you.

[Glenn Stanton]

general thoughts:

for simplicity - keep things one-to-one whenever possible

yes, in theory the pedal could be "patched in" - in practice, you would test this ? 

• bearing in mind most times tehre are TRS (tip-ring-sleeve) cables so your patchbay would need to support TRS connections.

one (1) output can feed one (1) or more inputs

• EXCEPT when those inputs are already connected to another output (meaning you have 2 ouput signals going into a single input -- this can cause all kinds of issues, or none. but generally unless you have some summing apparatus (like a resistor bridge) then you run the risk of overlouding the input, possibly damaging the other output when impedances are way off, etc).

line level is preferred over higher voltages (phantom power, 70v audio, power amp outputs)

• transitioning (plug in, pull out) patch cables when this high voltage is live can result in sparks (which erode your patch contacts), damage to other circuits including the voltage driver, etc. 
• here's a handy guide to understanding line level voltages: https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/understanding-signal-levels-audio-gear/

 

Edited April 26 by Glenn Stanton

[Gswitz]

Remembering what goes where is a trick for me. 

I use tiny gem stickers to mark sets of 4 so I can quickly get to the right things. 

I never have changed it yet. My patch bay is fixed.

I use it constantly. For example I have a 2 channel compressor...

Sometimes it compresses 2 mics that catch both guitar and vocals. 

Sometimes it compresses then deesses the vocal. 

Sometimes it is a linked mix compressor. 

Mainly I use it to route different pre outputs to different digitizing channels. 

It saves me a lot of time and trouble. 

[Nick Blanc]

On 4/26/2024 at 9:17 PM, Glenn Stanton said:

general thoughts:

for simplicity - keep things one-to-one whenever possible

yes, in theory the pedal could be "patched in" - in practice, you would test this ? 

• bearing in mind most times tehre are TRS (tip-ring-sleeve) cables so your patchbay would need to support TRS connections.

one (1) output can feed one (1) or more inputs

• EXCEPT when those inputs are already connected to another output (meaning you have 2 ouput signals going into a single input -- this can cause all kinds of issues, or none. but generally unless you have some summing apparatus (like a resistor bridge) then you run the risk of overlouding the input, possibly damaging the other output when impedances are way off, etc).

line level is preferred over higher voltages (phantom power, 70v audio, power amp outputs)

• transitioning (plug in, pull out) patch cables when this high voltage is live can result in sparks (which erode your patch contacts), damage to other circuits including the voltage driver, etc. 
• here's a handy guide to understanding line level voltages: https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/understanding-signal-levels-audio-gear/

 

Awesome info.  There's definitely more to it than just 'let me patch this thing in'. So I have to put a lot of thought in setting things up and thinking about how I want that and what my end result should be. Thanks!

[Nick Blanc]

On 4/27/2024 at 3:20 AM, Gswitz said:

Remembering what goes where is a trick for me. 

I use tiny gem stickers to mark sets of 4 so I can quickly get to the right things. 

I never have changed it yet. My patch bay is fixed.

I use it constantly. For example I have a 2 channel compressor...

Sometimes it compresses 2 mics that catch both guitar and vocals. 

Sometimes it compresses then deesses the vocal. 

Sometimes it is a linked mix compressor. 

Mainly I use it to route different pre outputs to different digitizing channels. 

It saves me a lot of time and trouble. 

Yeah I figured as much that labeling would be one of the first things to do. At least with an Excel sheet.

[Nick Blanc]

On 4/26/2024 at 6:14 PM, Glenn Stanton said:

one way to do this:

1. have all your synth outputs and IO inputs connected in your first 2 patch bays (assuming 16 each) - this gives you what you need for directly recording the synths without changes (i would consider doing "normalled" as i could use a simply Y split cable if i need to "tap" off for some other reason like a "clean" vs" fx'd synth recording)

2. have your effects in another set of patch bays in/out wholly separated ("de-normalled")

3. you can now patch any synth to any effect w the caveat the effct patched in "breaks" the clean path and the effect is fully inserted in the path (i think this is typically the desired approach as many effects have "level" or "mix" controls to set how much of the effect is heard)

of course all of this depends on your workflow and if you need multiple inputs for a single synth + fx (as noted in #1).

generally my patch bays simply expose every in and out, and things like mic / instrument inputs are normalled to the IO. effects are all de-normalled for flexibility, and monitoring are also via the patch panel (for line levels) and all mics have XLR patch to avoid TRS insert while 48v phantom volt is on and forgot to turn it off ?

i used to use a spreadsheet to create the labels but it got painful because of 4 different brands of patchbays, so i bought "patchcad" which made life much much easier https://www.patchcad.com/ (just a happy customer).

 

I've read this now several times, and it seems like a logical plan. Especially the splitting off with a Y cable. I'm a bit of a control freak for mixing and editing so I like my signals seperated. That's why I chose the 4x8 pre-amps solution over a mixer. But in reality, recording a wet signal in my workflow is 90% of the times all I need. I mainly do weekly livejams so there is no time for mixing it for weeks. Hours tops. 

I think I'll order a second patchbay, a whole bunch of cables, a week off work and a bottle of Jack. And RME  support on standby ?

[Glenn Stanton]

i have 6 patch bays ? more work but makes it much easier to layout and normal, half-normal, and de-normal as needed across all IO, FX, and monitoring as well as the XLR ones for mics and preamp patching.

 

older photo before adding XLR... 

Edited April 30 by Glenn Stanton

[Nick Blanc]

I'm rethinking this setup. Yes using a pedal with its own dedicated input would give me more control (recording of the 100% dry and 100% wet signal seperately and blending them afterwards to taste), but I've done some testruns now and I haven't found the need. For now I think I'm ok with recording the wet signal (most pedals have a mix knob). So I'm leaning towards your solution @Glenn Stanton. Having everything connected for direct recording. And the pedals connected seperately in the patchbay (or a second one, doesn't really matter, I might as well). So I could patch the synth signal from the top output to the pedal path and that output back into the synth path for recording. Am I making sense here?