Question for Kontakt Users

[Roger W]

I've got a song where I'm using 5 Kontakt instruments in one instance of Kontakt.

The last instrument I added was Session Percussionist (SP), which can have up to five different percussion instruments at once.
When I added this instrument, there was distortion on it (not on any other tracks).
I thought that I must have reached my computer's processing or RAM limits.

My computer was 4 years old and had a lot of fan noise, so I decided to build a new one that would be more quiet and more powerful.
After a few days of research on what to buy, and 2 days of computer hell setting it all up, I loaded in the song I was working on.
The distortion was still there ?

I started experimenting and discovered that in this song, if I created a separate instance of Kontakt for Session Percussionist, there was no distortion. (I did not remove the first instrument  of SP residing in the single instance of Kontakt with 4 other instruments.)

So my question is, "What's going on?"
Why would a single instance of Kontakt running 4 instruments cause distortion, but adding another instance of Kontakt for Session Percussionist would solve the problem?
I thought that it was possible to run many instruments in one instance of Kontakt . . . .

________________________________________

Two minor questions . . . .

1. The Performance module in Cakewalk shows CPU usage and the Disk Usage for Drive C.
   Why do I care about disk usage for Drive C?  Wouldn't it be more useful to show RAM usage?
2. In changing over to the new computer, mysteriously the Cakewalk icon disappeared. It's not on cakewalk.exe or the Shortcut. I solved this by using the icon on the Run as Administrator cakewalk.exe file for the Shortcut, but I'd like to know why the original icon disappeared? And, why is it not possible AFAIK to change the icon on an .exe file in Windows.

By the way, I'm very happy with the new computer ?
I'll share some of my experience for anyone that might be considering upgrading:

• The Intel CPU chip that I was buying already had high resolution graphics on it, so I did not need a separate graphics card. IIRC, the chip was only $20 more than the chip without graphics. The motherboard had 2 monitor inputs (Display and HDMI), which was all I needed.
• I guess because of not having a graphics card, the computer doesn't consumes a lot of electricity. I got one of those Power Supplies where the fan doesn't come on until there is a 300-watt load, and so far its fan has  never come on. The CPU cooler fans and 2 chassis fans run all the time, but they are very quiet. I used SSD drives which results in  more noise reduction. From two feet away I don't hear any noise from the computer, no matter what I running on it.
• The radiator for the CPU cooler was too big for the case. However, I discovered that I could install it behind the front panel if I only use 2 of the 3 fans. I added an additional case fan, and one came with the case. This setup seems to work OK. CPU temp is usually around 30 to 50 C, which I believe is well below where throttling kicks in.
• I moved the Windows 10 drive from the old to the new computer, and updated to Windows 11. Everything works fine so far -- except that somehow I lost the Cakewalk icon logo ?. Also, my Behringer XR18 interface is not recognized by Windows 11 if I start the computer with the unit on. I have to turn the interface off, then back on to get recognition. I don't know why that's happening, either.
• The main components I installed: i7 14700 14th Gen 16 Core, 64 DDR5 RAM, Cooler Master Liquid PL360 FLUX for CPU,  ASUS ROG Strix Z790-F Gaming WiFi II, Fractal Design Define 7 case. Not counting two NVMe M.2 SSD drives, it cost around $1600.

[Byron Dickens]

Did you try just turning down the offending track?

[Roger W]

That was my first thought -- that something was being overdriven.

But the SP track's meters were not clipping . . . .

[mettelus]

2 hours ago, Byron Dickens said:

Did you try just turning down the offending track?

^^^^ Depending on what Kontakt is doing internally, you may just be adding sounds together (on the same output). Kontakt has its own internal routing and mixer, so even though you can literally do a lot with a single instance, it can be confusing as to what is going on unless you know the what the "guts" are doing. Because of this it is sometimes simpler limit instruments in each instance of Kontakt (and use more instances of Kontakt itself), depending on familiarity with Kontakt and how complex the project is.

You just replied as I was typing... what are the meters on the outputs of Kontakt showing you?

[Glenn Stanton]

after checking the Kontakt setting (as above ^^^) and if it's still distorting, check the CW track gain settings - use enable the Pro Channel EQ to see if the input light is turning red - overdriven - and the turn the  gain down until it's maybe slightly yellow or green. generally your track meters should show it, but sometimes not. make sure nothing else on the track (e.g .compressors with makeup gain turned down and a high input level can add "colour" (distortion) to the track as well) is the cause.

[Roger W]

Thanks for your replies . . . . ?

Session Percussion sharing one Kontakt instance with three other instruments -- distorted on playback.
I added another track with the same Kontakt instrument alone.

Both tracks in Cakewalk set to same volume and gain. No clipping
Both instruments showing same Output level in Kontakt
Both instruments have their own separate output channel in Kontakt.
No plugins on either CW track.
Headphone volume level the same for both tracks on playback.
Track with Session Percussionist on the Kontakt with 3 instruments -- distorted. Other instruments are OK. Pro Channel EQ on CW track is constantly red.
Track on the Kontakt alone - not distorted. CW Pro Channel EQ not clipping.

What ?!?!?!?!?  ?

 

[David Baay]

35 minutes ago, Roger W said:

Track with Session Percussionist on the Kontakt with 3 instruments -- distorted.

What if you try that setup in standalone Kontakt or in another VSTi host?

[Promidi]

Have you enabled Multiprocessor Support in the Kontakt Options,  Engine tab?

[Roger W]

Here's what Kontakt's Engine tab says -- I have never made changes to any of these settings:

My processor is 8 core with 8 Efficiency cores.

Does anything look amiss with these settings?
Should Multiprocessor support be changed to 16?

 

[Roger W]

9 hours ago, David Baay said:

What if you try that setup in standalone Kontakt or in another VSTi host?

As you suggested, I set up 4 instruments in Stand Alone, and there was no distortion with Session Percussionist.

I don't have a 2nd DAW to try it there.

 

[Roger W]

I tried another experiment that removes several of the confounding variables . . . .

I created a new Cakewalk project:

• Set up a track with one instance of Kontakt and 4 instruments, one of which was Session Percussionist (SP). I created 3 Appended tracks in CW so each instrument had its own track.
• Set up another track with Kontakt and only Session Percussionist on it.
• I didn't change any settings in CW or Kontakt

In the multiple-instance Kontakt with 4 instruments, playback in SP was distorted.
In the single instance of Kontakt with only SP, there was no distortion during playback.

Since I didn't change any controls or settings, this would seem to rule out Operator Error.
Since there is negligible CPU load and RAM, I don't think we can blame the computer hardware for being insufficient.

This suggests there is a bug somewhere . . . either in Kontakt, or CW, or in the SP instrument.
Somehow when there is a multi-instrument Kontakt setup, and SP is one of those instruments, the volume is boosted into distortion on SP.

Any thoughts?

[Glenn Stanton]

maybe re-check your global output section settings - maybe a channel or the instrument volume is cranked causing the distortion (as witnessed by  red input light on the PC EQ). i know when i set up my generic template, i started w/ 16 blank instruments, then set the outputs to match # of instruments (16 stereo outputs), and set MIDI assignments for each 1-16. then later replace those blank instruments to create a specific template: guitars, basses, pianos, strings, brass, percussion, woodwinds, etc etc which each having one or more instruments of those types.

this has resulted in very clean and consistent Kontakt setups and i just load the template i want, remove ones, or combine them etc

[Roger W]

1 hour ago, Glenn Stanton said:

maybe re-check your global output section settings - maybe a channel or the instrument volume is cranked causing the distortion (as witnessed by  red input light on the PC EQ). i know when i set up my generic template, i started w/ 16 blank instruments, then set the outputs to match # of instruments (16 stereo outputs), and set MIDI assignments for each 1-16. then later replace those blank instruments to create a specific template: guitars, basses, pianos, strings, brass, percussion, woodwinds, etc etc which each having one or more instruments of those types.

this has resulted in very clean and consistent Kontakt setups and i just load the template i want, remove ones, or combine them etc

What is the "global output section"?
Is that in Cakewalk or Kontakt?

Thanks

[Glenn Stanton]

Kontakt

View -> Outputs (F2)

[Roger W]

In the multiple-instrument Kontakt, all the individual instrument Outputs are putting out the same level. No apparent clipping in the SP or other outputs.
However, when I look at the main Output meters and play only SP, that clips.
But this clipping does not happen in the single-instance Kontakt with SP playing.

In CW, the SP track clips in the Pro Channel EQ meter and the track meter.
However, in the CW track with SP on a single instance of Kontakt, the EQ meter and track meter do not clip, and the volume in the headphones is significantly lower.
Pro Channel is on in every track, and the EQ curve is set flat in all Pro Channels is flat.
I have touched any of the gain or volume controls in CW or Kontakt.

[orcmid]

I don't have Session Percussionist, so I can't verify anything in practice.  However, the Native Instruments site says that it requires Kontakt Player or Kontakt (Pro) versions 7.7 and above.  I also see, from the manual, that there are 5 console strips for the percussion "players", and they have individual volume and related controls.  Have you manipulated those?  I presume these might show up as sub instruments of the Session Percussionist "arrangement".  Or not.  If they do, they might have individual console strips.

The Kontakt 7 manual describes the use of multiple instances of Kontakt with this text:

"The plug-in version of KONTAKT allows you to use it as a virtual instrument inside your sequencer or DAW. This allows you to run multiple instances of KONTAKT, alongside other sound generators and effect plug-ins. Each instance can be triggered by MIDI data from within your sequencer, with the audio output fed directly into the signal flow of your virtual mixer."

I have not dug in to find out what the rules are for a `multi` and what you might or might not have control over.   I would think that the easy case is one instrument per Kontakt instance, which should give you individual console strips to mix with in your Cakewalk by BandLab project.

Does this ring any useful bells?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2023 by orcmid

[Roger W]

13 hours ago, orcmid said:

I don't have Session Percussionist, so I can't verify anything in practice.  However, the Native Instruments site says that it requires Kontakt Player or Kontakt (Pro) versions 7.7 and above.  I also see, from the manual, that there are 5 console strips for the percussion "players", and they have individual volume and related controls.  Have you manipulated those?  I presume these might show up as sub instruments of the Session Percussionist "arrangement".  Or not.  If they do, they might have individual console strips.

The Kontakt 7 manual describes the use of multiple instances of Kontakt with this text:

"The plug-in version of KONTAKT allows you to use it as a virtual instrument inside your sequencer or DAW. This allows you to run multiple instances of KONTAKT, alongside other sound generators and effect plug-ins. Each instance can be triggered by MIDI data from within your sequencer, with the audio output fed directly into the signal flow of your virtual mixer."

I have not dug in to find out what the rules are for a `multi` and what you might or might not have control over.   I would think that the easy case is one instrument per Kontakt instance, which should give you individual console strips to mix with in your Cakewalk by BandLab project.

Session Percussionist is set up so that there are up to 5 players, to which you can assign various instruments and choose from a multitude of patterns those instruments will play. You can customize the patterns as well, with a grid-type set-up.
The whole ensemble, or individual instruments, can be triggered with key switches, so the track is played by triggering by one or more midi notes. It's not like a drum instrument where you have midi notes for each drum strike.  Thus, there up to 5 voices but only one output with Session Percussionist.

One instance of Kontakt can be used in one track to play one instrument. Or, one instance of Kontakt can be set up to host several instruments. Each method has its advantages.
I am only having a problem with Session Percussionist using the latter method.

[mettelus]

34 minutes ago, Roger W said:

Thus, there up to 5 voices but only one output with Session Percussionist.

That alone would be a reason to consider using only one Kontakt instance on SP and leave it at that. Unless you have finite control over those 5 voices, you could easily load a patch preset that is close to clipping already (a lot of presets default to "fairly hot" as it is). I do not own SP either, but if you have a solution that works, I would stick to that and not waste time trying to make it do something it doesn't want to do. There are a lot of VSTs that have quirky response under select conditions; some have solutions, others have workarounds. The ones that have neither are the ones to watch out for.

[Roger W]

1 hour ago, mettelus said:

That alone would be a reason to consider using only one Kontakt instance on SP and leave it at that. Unless you have finite control over those 5 voices, you could easily load a patch preset that is close to clipping already (a lot of presets default to "fairly hot" as it is). I do not own SP either, but if you have a solution that works, I would stick to that and not waste time trying to make it do something it doesn't want to do. There are a lot of VSTs that have quirky response under select conditions; some have solutions, others have workarounds. The ones that have neither are the ones to watch out for.

4 reasons why I don't think this is a waste of time for me:

1. Yes, using a single instance of K for each instrument is a workaround.  But using multiple instruments in 1 instance of K has some advantages, so I'd like to be able to have that as an option.
2. If this is a bug, I think the publisher would like to know about it, especially since the default preset the SP instrument opens with is distorted.
3. It could be that there is no bug, and I'm somehow making a mistake in what I'm trying to do, i.e., operator error. If so, I'd like to know that.
4. Sometimes I enjoy figuring things out. It's like a puzzle.

This is not a case of a faulty (too hot) preset.  It's deeper than that.
As I mentioned before, I can open up the preset in a single instance of SP, and there is no distortion. Distortion only appears when I have multiple instruments on one instance of K, and it only occurs with SP.
This seems to be a problem in how K, or the SP instrument itself, handles being in a multiple-instrument K setup.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Roger W

[Roger W]

I've concluded that this problem is a Kontakt issue, so I've filed a ticket with them.

The problem is simple to reproduce, and perhaps they will come up with a solution.