Usb midi controller not playing back midi information in Cakewalk

[John Vere]

The problem is the OP attitude that things should just work the way you think they should work and not bother to learn the very basic things that everyone had to learn to start recording with any DAW. 
There’s are literally hundreds of tutorials on Cakewalk now and every one of those series starts with stuff like this. Or ya read the manual but I don’t blame people for not wanting to do that as it overwhelmingly huge. 

I saw this post first and right away saw that it was as simple as what it was.  The clue was the example of the virtual keyboard not working too. There’s only a few reasons that would happen. 

But I sort of try and keep quiet  once someone else is helping because too many helpers gets confusing. And actually my normal reply would have been to post a link to the midi tutorials. It’s much faster than re writing the manual for folks ?

[Byron Dickens]

2 hours ago, Mr No Name said:

all sorted, and I didn't even have to read the manual.

Never mind that we've been fiddle - f---ing around, blindly stabbing in the dark for over a year....

[User 905133]

4 hours ago, Mr No Name said:

thanks for the replies, every day is a school day. I still not convinced that this echo button is not just what used to be known as a "PFL"  button?  

anyway, all sorted, and I didn't even have to read the manual.

And in your honor, I will not look up "PFL" to be consistent with your philosophy / professed way-of-being-in-the-world. ?

[Mr No Name]

I have to say I'm not too impressed with the unfriendly tone this thread has gone in, not to mrntion the lack of sense of humour., that aside I still am a fan of the cakewalk DAW, but it has some serious flaws.

fyi, I did infact use the help search function for my issue,

the info it gave back was not useful and very basic,

I had plugged that usb keyboard controller not too soon after it was d'l and it didn't work right off the bat, reason unknown.

I had assumed for this reason the controller was broken, until it worked first time and with zero issues in cubase,

I don't mess around with or change settings that I don't know the function of (rule 101)

the problem was inherant in the software for some reason, cause which is unknown.

I have used cakewalk for a year in audio for "mastering" and ignored midi

there are some problems with the software I have encountered,

the "manual" could be better

the forum could be better,

the daw could be better,

but I still like it, and it was free,

I managed to solve my own problem despite reading a "manual" and asking a "forum"

 

look at this completely different issue relating to midi playback which is not mentioned in any manual. plagued him for years apparently.

 

[Byron Dickens]

Wow. Years huh?

I'm just dumbfounded. Absolutely dumbfounded.

 

[User 905133]

Disclaimer: I am not a guitarist and to the best of my knowledge I have never watched videos from the Guitar Rig Guru before. From what I can tell his YouTube channel is primarily geared towards guitarists although this particular video has attracted 2.2K views since it was posted (April 2022).   

Although it is over six minutes long, for me it is useful to the current discussion because (1) it shows yet another two reasons why someone might not have sound coming from a soft synth, (2) he takes the time to show people who might not be familiar with using Instrument Tracks the audio paths he uses in the example project, and (3) two explanations** of why with this particular example project there was no audio (a) from the virtual controller and (b) from the recorded track are both included  (**although one is glossed over and the other is more explicit).

The two different causes for the "No Sound" issue might not be readily evident to Cakewalk users. Additionally, the second cause might not be discovered by early stage diagnostics especially for someone who doesn't use automation lanes regularly. 

(1) Regarding playback: The automation for Track 1 (an Instrument Track) starts with Volume at zero and doesn't get pulled up to normal volume until about measure 9.  The envelope comes up slowly (fades in),  You can see that at approx 4:30. Just before that he shows that the plug in (Z3ta+ 2) is producing audio.

Comment: Don't be fooled by the fact that the video only has 26 likes even with 2.2K views over a year and a half.  To me it just shows in part that this particular cause (automation envelope has the volume at zero) might not be common.  To me the fact that there are so many more views than his other videos suggests that there was draw to the video in part because it addresses a problem other Cakewalk users have (albeit with different causes).

(2) Regarding live sound:  At approx. 1:49 we can also see that MIDI Echo / Input Echo is on for Track 1, but not Track 2 (Addictive Drums).  Immediately after that we can see how he has no live sound from the Virtual Controller (the source of his frustration by his own admission) and then at approx. 2:21 we can see him change the focus to Track 2 which automatically turns MIDI Echo / Input Echo on for Track 2. 

• NOTES:
  • (1) As a synthesist (initially using hardware and more recently using soft synths), I called the button under discussion in this thread MIDI Echo because having it on enabled live playing of notes to pass through to the synth
  • (2) The video is well intentioned, but is unintentionally deceptive. It covers two different possible causes for the issue (no sound from soft synths / VST instruments) but seems to focus more on the issue of Track 1 (Z3ta+ 2 + automation at volume = zero based on the time marker / Now Time) than Track 2 (Addictive Drums +  track focus + Input Echo switching). As a result, some viewers might not realize these are just two of many possible causes.
  • (3) The Guitar Rig Guru shows posts from the forum to demonstrate that he is attempting  to describe a cause that no one on the forum described.  This is true but only for the Track 1, automation cause.  In fact, the second post directly addresses the OP's issue (this thread) as well as one of the Guru's two causes. 

  • On 2/10/2020 at 3:43 PM, reginaldStjohn said:

    All I can suggest is to double check that you have input echo enabled on the track you have selected so that the midi notes are "echoed" through the midi track to the instrument. If you can add midi notes manually to the PRV or Step Sequencer and the instrument is heard then that connection seems to be correct.

     

FINAL POINT: Don't misunderstand: I am not saying Guitar Rig Guru's video is bad. I am however, saying it could have done more of a service (and perhaps gotten many more than 26 likes out of 2.2K views) if he (1) emphasized a goal of showing multiple causes, (2) specifically identified the more common causes and their solutions, and then (3) added yet another cause + solution that he stumbled onto.

In fact, I initially thought the video was exclusively about problem solving Track 1 and the Automation Volume starting out at zero issue, even though one of the first things I noticed on my initial viewing was the track focus / Input Echo issue at approx. 1:49 (i.e., the OP's issue).

In case anyone is interested in why I said the video is unintentionally deceptive, please take a look at starting at approx 4:02 . At 4:12 we see Input Echo buttons for both Tracks 1 and 2 are on. He then does a very useful (IMO) diagnostic summary--how he knows that the MIDI routing is correct / working. However, at approx. 4:21 he clicks on Track 1 which turns Track 2's MIDI Echo / Input Echo off.  

JMO: Veteran users of Cakewalk have a mind to hand coordination / fluency that some people looking for solutions to very specific problems might not have.  So, it is my claim that this kind of subtle visual change that is not explicitly called to the viewer's attention helps conflate the two very different causes. 

Again, I am not saying the video is bad. I think that for people who don't have a lot of experience using automation lanes, it emphasizes an important thing to look at when diagnosing the "No Sound from Plugin" issue.  It also has subtle clues (i.e., visual) about the importance of the MIDI Echo / Input Echo button in diagnosing the "No Sound" issue. In addition, the section that starts around 4:21 ("These are the areas you need to check . . . .") is a good internal summary of some important diagnostic steps (MIDI/Audio/Instrument Routing) for the "No Sound" issue (among other issues).

To reiterate what I wrote previously, it is so very basic that I assumed that anyone using Cakewalk with soft synths would have at least some experience with the Input Echo button.  My bad for not taking the "Explain it like you would explain it to someone who has never used Cakewalk before" approach.

Edited December 20, 2023 by User 905133
fixed typo; deleted an extraneous word ("uses")

[Byron Dickens]

On 12/19/2023 at 1:15 AM, Mr No Name said:

I had plugged that usb keyboard controller... it didn't work right off the bat, reason unknown.

I had assumed for this reason the controller was broken.....

Mistake number one. You jumped right to an incorrect conclusion based off of an erroneous assumption instead of testing the controller.

Test. Don't guess.

On 12/19/2023 at 1:15 AM, Mr No Name said:

fyi, I did infact use the help search function for my issue,

the info it gave back was not useful and very basic,

Here are mistakes two and three.

Now please don't take this the wrong way because it is not meant to denigrate you or insult your intelligence because its not just you. It seems like they either don't teach basic research skills in school any more, the internet has made people really lazy or some combination of both.

The problem with the search function is twofold.  First, if you're not sure what something is called, if you don't word it the same way it is in the documentation, or you misspell something you're liable to come up empty handed. Second, if you use too broad or too narrow a search string then you very likely won't come up with good results.

This is why people need to learn how to use the table of contents and the index.

That is mistake number two. Mistake number three is  thinking that the documentation is going to spell out specifically the exact solution to your exact problem as you have described it to yourself.

There is no way the documentation can cover every possible use case where something can go wrong. even attempting it is a fool's errand. There are infinite ways that something can be wrong but only one way it can be right.

Cakewalk's documentation is very good and quite thorough. The information is all there for you to figure out your problem but you have to piece together your prior knowledge of the fundamentals of how it works along with what you just looked up, make logical inferences from there and formulate a systematic test plan.

On 12/19/2023 at 1:15 AM, Mr No Name said:

the problem was inherant in the software for some reason, cause which is unknown.

The problem is not inherent in the software, it is inherent in user error.

On 12/19/2023 at 1:15 AM, Mr No Name said:

I managed to solve my own problem despite reading a "manual" and asking a "forum"

 

Well, you did, but you didn't.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Byron Dickens

[Mr No Name]

5 hours ago, Byron Dickens said:

Mistake number one. You jumped right to an incorrect conclusion based off of an erroneous assumption instead of testing the controller.

Test. Don't guess.

Here are mistakes two and three.

Now please don't take this the wrong way because it is not meant to denigrate you or insult your intelligence because its not just you. It seems like they either don't teach basic research skills in school any more, the internet has made people really lazy or some combination of both.

The problem with the search function is twofold.  First, if you're not sure what something is called, if you don't word it the same way it is in the documentation, or you misspell something you're liable to come up empty handed. Second, if you use too broad or too narrow a search string then you very likely won't come up with good results.

This is why people need to learn how to use the table of contents and the index.

That is mistake number two. Mistake number three is  thinking that the documentation is going to spell out specifically the exact solution to your exact problem as you have described it to yourself.

There is no way the documentation can cover every possible use case where something can go wrong. even attempting it is a fool's errand. There are infinite ways that something can be wrong but only one way it can be right.

Cakewalk's documentation is very good and quite thorough. The information is all there for you to figure out your problem but you have to piece together your prior knowledge of the fundamentals of how it works along with what you just looked up, make logical inferences from there and formulate a systematic test plan.

The problem is not inherent in the software, it is inherent in user error.

On 12/19/2023 at 1:15 AM, Mr No Name said:

I managed to solve my own problem despite reading a "manual" and asking a "forum"

 

Well, you did, but you didn't.

Thanks for taking the time to write your patronising internet post.

I think the most helpful post in this thread has been at the end of page one, where it was said that input echo is supposed to be on by default on a channel, the case is is that is was off by default and had to be switched on for the midi to function. This is backwards to how it is designed given that I have stated that I had not adjusted the settings in the midi folder for this function.

This would lead us to believe that something has automatically changed the behaviour of this function in the software and is infact a bug. (if it is not designed to work this way)

I don't have the time or inclination to reverse engineer the problem to find the solution, but the only reason I can think of is, it is something to do with hot plugging a usb midi keyboard while the program is running or changing/plugging/unplugging interfaces while the program is open.

There quite clearly is some scenario whereby the software is changing its own settings in the midi functions folder.

reason as yet unknown.

thanks for your replies.

[User 905133]

4 hours ago, Mr No Name said:

Thanks for taking the time to write your patronising internet post.

I think the most helpful post in this thread has been at the end of page one, where it was said that input echo is supposed to be on by default on a channel, the case is is that is was off by default and had to be switched on for the midi to function. This is backwards to how it is designed given that I have stated that I had not adjusted the settings in the midi folder for this function.

This would lead us to believe that something has automatically changed the behaviour of this function in the software and is infact a bug. (if it is not designed to work this way)

I don't have the time or inclination to reverse engineer the problem to find the solution, but the only reason I can think of is, it is something to do with hot plugging a usb midi keyboard while the program is running or changing/plugging/unplugging interfaces while the program is open.

There quite clearly is some scenario whereby the software is changing its own settings in the midi functions folder.

reason as yet unknown.

thanks for your replies.

OY!  ? 

Edited December 21, 2023 by User 905133

[Mr No Name]

I found this page in the "manual" which may have explained the issue and how to solve it under "troubleshooting"

 

No sound from my software instrument/synth

Symptom: I have inserted a soft synth, but when I play notes on my MIDI keyboard I don't hear anything.

Solutions:

Make sure the Instrument track, MIDI track, or audio track is not muted.

Make sure the MIDI notes are in the right range for the synth's patch.

Make sure your MIDI/Instrument Track has its input assigned to the correct MIDI port.

Make sure Cakewalk’s audio engine is engaged. The Audio Engine button in the Control Bar (Transport module) is lit when the audio engine is engaged.

Unless you are using a dedicated Instrument track for the soft synth, make sure the current MIDI track’s Output control is assigned to the soft synth.

Make sure the Input Echo button on the current MIDI track is set to Input Echo: Auto Thru or Input Echo: On.

If your MIDI controller contains an onboard sound module, make sure its Local Control function is set to OFF.

 

More Frequently asked questions.

 

 

                                So the answer may have been found there in that location.

 

On a side note, It has been said that the default position of the "input echo" button is ON, 

Does this infact mean that it is automatically illuminated on opening an instantiation of an instrument track?  this thread has lead me to believe this to be the case?

 

also does the fact an audio channel has an instance of "input echo" on it, bearing in mind an audio channel cannot use this function? (or can it, only if a recording input is selected?)

could the fact that if a project template was opened that had an audio channel as first insert (and no need for "input echo")  that this would automatically turn  "input echo" off on all other inserted channels afterwards- regardless of weather an audio or midi channel was used?

 

thanks.

[57Gregy]

1 hour ago, Mr No Name said:

also does the fact an audio channel has an instance of "input echo" on it, bearing in mind an audio channel cannot use this function? (or can it, only if a recording input is selected?)

If you are using an amp sim effect, or any other effect on any audio track, you need to have Input Echo on in order to hear the effect while recording.

[Byron Dickens]

On 12/19/2023 at 1:15 AM, Mr No Name said:

look at this completely different issue relating to midi playback which is not mentioned in any manual. plagued him for years apparently.

 

 

The answer actually is in the manual. But like I said elsewhere, it is a mistake to think it will be spelled out for you in so many words.

How to connect the controller is definitely in the manual for it. How to insert a soft synth, how to route MIDI from it to said soft synth, how to route the output of the synth, etc. its all in there. Volume automation is in the manual.

If you have the volume at 0, guess what the track is. Muted.

The reason I'm dumbfounded is that it should have taken 30 minutes at the most to figure this one out.

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Byron Dickens

[Byron Dickens]

7 hours ago, Mr No Name said:

Thanks for taking the time to write your patronising internet post.

Patronizing?

You're the one who fiddle-f--ked around blindly for a year with this when the answer is right in front of you the whole time.

Don't get mad at me. Get mad at yourself.

Or maybe your parents should have sued your school district....

[OutrageProductions]

3 hours ago, Mr No Name said:

... It has been said that the default position of the "input echo" button is ON, 

This is true. 

However; over the past few years, when I installed a program update, I would occasionally incur an anomaly that changed some minor function in my application preferences that was difficult to find, troubleshoot and remedy even with nearly 3 decades of using the software. It was well documented on my end, but not reproducible elsewhere. I started to save screenshots of all the pages of my preferences for comparison, since there is no direct way to backup just the prefs.

I sorta just blame the Sun for bombarding my hard drive with excess nutrinos at the exact moment of writing the update data.

That's my Occam's Razor justification, and I'm stickin' with it. ?

Edited December 21, 2023 by OutrageProductions

[David Baay]

9 hours ago, Mr No Name said:

On a side note, It has been said that the default position of the "input echo" button is ON, 

Does this infact mean that it is automatically illuminated on opening an instantiation of an instrument track?  this thread has lead me to believe this to be the case?

Not exactly. What I said was that the option to Always Echo Current MIDI Track is enabled by default in a new installation. When you insert a new Instrument track it will automatically become the current/active/focused track so the Input Echo button will be enabled in Auto-Thru mode (as indicated by an "A" in the icon).

9 hours ago, Mr No Name said:

also does the fact an audio channel has an instance of "input echo" on it, bearing in mind an audio channel cannot use this function? (or can it, only if a recording input is selected?)

 It was mentioned that Input Echo needs to be enabled on an audio track to hear the input while recording with or without FX. More generally, it needs to be enabled to hear live, external input, whether recording or not.

[John Vere]

3 hours ago, David Baay said:

More generally, it needs to be enabled to hear live, external input, whether recording or not.

To add to this All audio interfaces have direct monitoring which is the preferred way to hear your  input signal with out having the system latency delaying what you hear. 
To me it’s part of the best practices to lay down squeaky tight overdubs. I never turn on input echo for audio. 
And for midi it was one of the first things I learned about Cakewalk 20 years ago. 
And yes it normally on after I insert a midi track. But there’s a zillion reasons why it might not be on. Just like everything else about Cakewalk.  I’m glad you’re learning that’s the main thing. 
 

Edited December 22, 2023 by John Vere