Using Kontakt in multiple tracks

[Roger W]

Using Kontakt in Cakewalk . . . .

When I've got several Instruments tracks loaded, I've been assigning each track to a different Midi Input source. Then, when I want to use the keyboard to input to any particular track, I switch the Midi Channel of the keyboard to the associated track. The purpose of this is to prevent midi during recording from triggering any other track.

I also thought of another way to do it, using channel 1 for recording the input for all tracks, but after finishing recording to the track, changing that track's input to say Channel 2. Each time after recording into a track, I would also set that track's input to Channel 2. This prevents any of the already recorded tracks from be triggered when recording any new tracks.

I'm wonder if there is not another easier way to do this.
In your experience, is this the best way to work with multiple Kontakt Libraries?
 

A second question . . . .

I tried to use the Kontakt Library "Session Strings Pro 2", but I can't figure out how to set the Midi Channel. The controls are different than all the other Libraries I've tried.
Here's a comparison:

Session Strings Pro 2:

All the other Libraries look like this:

[Canopus]

I used to set the MIDI Channel to 1 when recording, and then change to another MIDI channel when done. Now I more often have multiple instances of Kontakt. Yes, it's probably more resource consuming, but I've got a pretty powerful computer.

As for Session String Pro (or, indeed, any Kontakt library), click the Info ("i") button, and the MIDI Channel field will be displayed. On the top image you've got the Snapshot (Camera) button selected.

[Milton Sica]

In this channel you found

https://www.youtube.com/@CreativeSauce/videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wF64xNsM8T8&t=923s&pp=ugMICgJwdBABGAHKBRZjcmVhdGl2ZSBzYXVjZSBrb250YWt0

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=creative+sauce+kontakt

[Michael A.D.]

6 hours ago, Roger W said:

I can't figure out how to set the Midi Channel

Click on the camera icon and then the display will change to the one shown with your Field Drum.   Then you can set both the Output and the Midi channel - usually these would be set to the same number.

Ideally, you should run one instance of Kontakt with multiple outputs - each instrument with its own Output and Midi channel.

[msmcleod]

This is the easiest way to do it:

If you add additional libraries in Kontakt later on, just re-run the batch function in Kontakt, then use "Append Instrument Track" to add the new tracks.

You can do this for up to 16 libraries - after that, you'll need to add a new Kontakt instance.

[Roger W]

15 hours ago, Canopus said:

I used to set the MIDI Channel to 1 when recording, and then change to another MIDI channel when done. Now I more often have multiple instances of Kontakt. Yes, it's probably more resource consuming, but I've got a pretty powerful computer.

As for Session String Pro (or, indeed, any Kontakt library), click the Info ("i") button, and the MIDI Channel field will be displayed. On the top image you've got the Snapshot (Camera) button selected.

Thanks for the tip on the Info button. That solved my problems.

Regards Kontakt . . . when you use multiple instances of Kontakt, do you assign each of them to a different inputs and then change the output on your keyboard whenever you want to record on any particular Kontakt-loaded track?

[JnTuneTech]

9 hours ago, msmcleod said:

You can do this for up to 16 libraries - after that, you'll need to add a new Kontakt instance.

That's a good thing to know - thanks!  -Though I suppose you are referring to using 16 Kontakt output channels / pairs per Kontakt instance loaded in Cakewalk technically? I was unsure, because as of 2023 documentation for Kontakt Player:

Quote

In Multi Instrument mode, any Instrument in the Multi will be shown as a horizontal Instrument Header, which contains the Instrument name and related settings. Your Multi can contain up to 64 Instruments, which will be spread across 4 pages of up to 16 Instruments each.

- I don't suppose many of us will try that fully... but I wanted to be sure what you mean here!

-On a related note, or actually question: Does the performance of Cakewalk change as more VST3 instrument outputs are engaged - added to tracking? In my case, since about the time of Kontakt 7 release, I seem to have had more system load issues with Kontakt 7 VST3 as I begin to add multiple outputs and use them in Cakewalk. Perhaps it is more a function of Kontakt routing that takes up the resources differently? I am unlikely to have the time to test against older setups, but I know it happens to me now with single Kontakt instruments that have internal routing options. Whereas I used to add multiple Kontakt outputs, and then just use the Instrument GUI to split some elements out with no discernable system load, lately I have not had such good fortune?  I have always wondered - how does the multiple output assignment/usage option itself affect the system performance in Cakewalk?

[OutrageProductions]

Kontakt 7.x is a massive resource hog on all platforms and DAWs when compared to K6/5, so it's not specific to CbB.

Hopefully NI will find a way to resolve that issue. Personally, I have regressed to only using K6, and I'll watch their progress in future.

[Roger W]

18 hours ago, Milton Sica said:

In this channel you found

https://www.youtube.com/@CreativeSauce/videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wF64xNsM8T8&t=923s&pp=ugMICgJwdBABGAHKBRZjcmVhdGl2ZSBzYXVjZSBrb250YWt0

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=creative+sauce+kontakt

Thanks for the links ?

The 2nd one is the latest and best, including a lot of complex information on how to set up multiple instruments in an efficient way. I found it quite valuable.
In his step-by-step instructions, he shows perhaps the best way to use one instance of Kontakt with up to 16 Libraries. This puts less stress on computer processing.

Although I may have missed it, he didn't offer a method to keep all tracks from being triggered at once by the keyboard. I copied his setup, yet when I tried it I had that problem. However, looking closely I saw that he had each instrument set to a progressively higher midi channel. This suggests that he had to change his keyboard channel each time he recorded on a track. Perhaps that's the best way to do it?

 

[Roger W]

14 hours ago, msmcleod said:

This is the easiest way to do it:

If you add additional libraries in Kontakt later on, just re-run the batch function in Kontakt, then use "Append Instrument Track" to add the new tracks.

You can do this for up to 16 libraries - after that, you'll need to add a new Kontakt instance.

Thanks for making that video. I appreciate you taking the time to do that ?

However, I had trouble following it completely because some things went by too fast. Is there any way to slow down the playback?

[Roger W]

12 hours ago, Roger W said:

Thanks for making that video. I appreciate you taking the time to do that ?

However, I had trouble following it completely because some things went by too fast. Is there any way to slow down the playback?

After watching it a few times, I was able to catch all the steps

After doing the steps, I found that I had to go into the Midi Ch of each instrument, and change it to a different output channel of my keyboard. Then, I had to set each Cakewalk track's input with the corresponding input channels from my keyboard. This way, each track was individually triggered.

I noticed that in the Creative Sauce video, in the Kontakt Output/Batch setting Mike used "Clear output settings and create one individual channel for each loaded instrument" while you used, "Split instruments routed to the first output channel to individual outputs." I tried both, and seemed to get the same result . . . so I don't really understand how these two choices are different?

Another question . . . .

When setting the Midi Ch input for each instrument, one instrument (out of 16) said, "7 + groups". Even though I chose "[A] 7" in the dropdown, it put  "[A] 7 + groups".  And playing midi on that track somehow triggered 7 as well as another track. I deleted that instrument and put in another, and everything was normal.
That was baffling, and I could not figure out why that was happening?

 

[David Baay]

30 minutes ago, Roger W said:

I found that I had to go into the Midi Ch of each instrument, and change it to a different output channel of my keyboard. Then, I had to set each Cakewalk track's input with the corresponding input channels from my keyboard. This way, each track was individually triggered.

You don't have to change you're keyboard's output channel; you can leave it at 1 and leave the track's Input set to 1. The forced output Channel setting on each track will re-channelize both incoming and existing recorded messages dynamically on playback as they are sent to the output to match the channel assigned in the Kontakt.

36 minutes ago, Roger W said:

When setting the Midi Ch input for each instrument, one instrument (out of 16) said, "7 + groups". Even though I chose "[A] 7" in the dropdown, it put  "[A] 7 + groups". 

This sounds like you've created some multi-channel presets at some point.

[Roger W]

7 hours ago, David Baay said:

You don't have to change you're keyboard's output channel; you can leave it at 1 and leave the track's Input set to 1. The forced output Channel setting on each track will re-channelize both incoming and existing recorded messages dynamically on playback as they are sent to the output to match the channel assigned in the Kontakt.

I attempted to do what you suggested . . . but after changing  settings, pressing a note on the keyboard triggered multiple Cakewalk tracks at the same time. Not the desired goal.
I must be misunderstanding your instructions in some way . . . .

For example, when you said, "The forced output Channel setting on each track . . . .", I didn't know whether you were referring to a Kontakt or a Cakewalk setting.

In any evernt, I know of only 4 routing settings that seem to pertain to using multiple Kontakt instruments in Cakewalk:
* The keyboard's output settings, which I set to 1, and left it there.
* In Cakewalk, there is an Input setting for each track, which I set to 1 for all tracks.
* In Kontakt, there is a MIDI Ch setting, which I set to one for all instruments.
* The Output setting in Kontakt I left as the Batch Function created it for each track.

Unfortunately, pressing a key on the keyboard triggers all the tracks.

I don't know what I'm doing wrong.
Please advise . . . . .


 

[David Baay]

@Roger W If you choose to show 'All" controls in the Track Control Manager above the tracks pane or go to the MIDI tab at the bottom of the Track Inspector, you will see controls labeled C, B and P for Channel, Bank, and Patch. The Channel control sets the forced output channel; this is what needs to match the Kontakt channel.

Edited December 1, 2023 by David Baay

[msmcleod]

If you use the Append Instrument Track function, you don't need to force the MIDI channel - it's done for you.

In fact, altering the forced MIDI channel will confuse the Per-Output Track functionality, and will likely not allow you add new tracks using that method.

To use Per-Output Instrument tracks, you need to configure your VSTi so that the MIDI channels are ascending from 1 to 16, and they match (in the same order), the audio outputs for those channels.  In other words,  the sound listening on MIDI Channel 1 goes to Stereo Output 1; the sound listening on MIDI Channel 2 goes to Stereo Output 2 etc.

The batch functions in Kontakt do that for you.  Other VSTi's will require you to map them yourself.

Once you understand the concept more thoroughly, you can create more advanced setups - e.g. layering sounds by ensuring the MIDI channel / audio output of more than one library are the same... but if you're just starting out, stick to the basics.

[Roger W]

Thanks for everyone's help ?

I was finally able to get multiple Kontakt instruments playing in Cakewalk very efficiently -- without needing to change the Channels on my keyboard or elsewhere.

I was confused in part because there are inputs and outputs in both the Kontakt instruments and  Cakewalk, and I wasn't clear on exactly was being suggested.
For my own understanding, I've compiled a step-by-step description of how to set it up, and will paste it here for those who are as confused as I was. If any of those more knowledgeable than I am about this see a way this can be improved, please chime in.

1. Cakewalk
Drag Kontakt 7 from the Instruments list at the right.
In Synth Menu window that appears, check the following:

•     Instrument Track per Output
•     Stereo Audio Output
•     Synth Property Page
•     Synth Rack View      
•     Number of Tracks/Track Pairs to Create     Limit to  1
•     Enable Midi Output

2. Kontakt v 7.7
In View at top, click on Side Pane to show instruments on the left.
Add all desired Instruments by dragging desired Instrument --  .nki file  -- from the list at left into the Main window. Can hold Shf or Ctl to make multiple selections.
Open Outputs from View menu -    Presets/Batch    Batch Functions    "Clear output settings and create one individual channel for each loaded instrument".

3. Cakewalk
Right Click on track number of new Kontakt track, select Append Instrument Track. Repeat this to create tracks for each Instruments that is loaded.

To add additional instruments later, repeat steps 2 and 3 above.

A few notes:
*  I noticed that after setting things up, the Cakewalk input on the instrument tracks  initially said "Omni", but soon mysteriously changed to "All External Inputs".
* To input midi from the keyboard, the target instrument track in Cakewalk needs to have focus (be "activated").
* The Input Echo seems plays a role, but I haven't quite figured it out yet. Try setting Input Echo = ON for all instrument tracks.

 

[msmcleod]

4 hours ago, Roger W said:

A few notes:
*  I noticed that after setting things up, the Cakewalk input on the instrument tracks  initially said "Omni", but soon mysteriously changed to "All External Inputs".
* To input midi from the keyboard, the target instrument track in Cakewalk needs to have focus (be "activated").
* The Input Echo seems plays a role, but I haven't quite figured it out yet. Try setting Input Echo = ON for all instrument tracks.

 

In Preferences->MIDI->Playback And Recording,  there's a "Always Echo Current MIDI Track".   This causes MIDI input echo to be enabled on the active (focussed) track - you'll see an "A" on the echo button to tell you it's enabled because it's the active track.  It this is unchecked, you'll have to manually enable input echo.

There's nothing stopping you manually enabling MIDI echo for all of the tracks yourself of course, but this will cause all of those tracks to respond to MIDI input. 

Also be careful that no other tracks are transmitting MIDI data, as this will also cause it to play on those tracks (this can happen when MIDI output is enabled on another VSTi).  Enabling MIDI echo on a track will cause them to react to those MIDI messages too.

Although you can change the input filter on each track only to respond to a particular device/channel, most users find this inconvenient, as it requires you to change the MIDI channel on your controller keyboard to match the track you want to echo.

The default setting is to have the MIDI filter set to "None", with "Always Echo Current MIDI Track" checked.  MIDI echo will be enabled and the filter set to "Omni" when the track is the active track.

[Roger W]

10 hours ago, msmcleod said:

. . . . a lot of valuable info

Your wisdom is deep, Master.

Thanks again ?
Grasshopper

[Roger W]

On 12/1/2023 at 3:09 PM, msmcleod said:

If you use the Append Instrument Track function, you don't need to force the MIDI channel - it's done for you.
In fact, altering the forced MIDI channel will confuse the Per-Output Track functionality, and will likely not allow you add new tracks using that method.

One roadblock that's prevented me from understanding how to set up multiple instruments in Kontakt7 was that my Cakewalk GUI setup did not display the MIDI Ch control that normally appears at the bottom of the horizontal track strip controls. If I understand you correctly, this is the "forced MIDI channel" control that you were referring to. Somehow my Cakewalk was not configured to show that.

I've now enabled it:

Up to that point, the only MIDI Ch settings I knew about were at the bottom of the Track strip in the Inspector and the Console:

So in your previous post, you said that if the forced MIDI Ch setting is changed after setting Kontakt up with the "Per-Output Track functionality", then problems arise. In other words, this a bug?

Anyway, after receiving your and others' advice here, I was doing OK when I set up one instance of Kontakt with multiple instruments. But later, when I decided to delete one instrument in the list and replace it with another, strange things happened.

I started with 5 instruments, and all worked well. I could record and play back with no difficulty.
Then I deleted one of the instruments.
I re-Batched. All instruments would sound when playing back the song. However, when I attempted to Solo some of the tracks, some would sound in Solo, while others would go dead.
Having discovered the new-to-me MIDI ch control, I attempted to get all the inputs and outputs synced up so playback would work  correctly, but I failed.

Was this a case of me running into the problem (bug?) that you described that results from forcing a channel?
If that is the case, how does one get it to work after deleting an instrument from the list ?
Or is the only solution to completely start over and set up the instruments again?

 

Roger

[David Baay]

4 hours ago, Roger W said:

Was this a case of me running into the problem (bug?) that you described that results from forcing a channel?
If that is the case, how does one get it to work after deleting an instrument from the list ?

No, you can change forced MIDI channels as needed after the fact, and you should be able to delete an instrument in Kontakt without ill effects. What Mark was saying is that changing forced MIDI Channel assignments might interefere with creating more Instrument/Output tracks for the same synth instance later. I'm not sure exactly how that manifests as I've not tried it, but I don't think it's relevant to the issue you encountered.

I'd have to see your project before and after deleting the instrument to understand what might have happened to cause the soloing issues. All that should have happened is that the track that was using that instrument would go silent, but it might depend on how instruments were assigned to outputs in Kontakt.

Before doing anything I would recommend going into Kontakt 7's Outputs view and changing the default configuration to 16x stereo outputs so that when you insert it in a project with the Instrument per Output option, the instrument tracks are named like Kontakt 7 1 Out 1, Out 2, Out 3, ... Out 16 for clarity.