What are the deals you really want to see?

[Amicus717]

41 minutes ago, Carl Ewing said:

Ya - LA Scoring Strings was their first big library - and is an exceptionally detailed library - with reeeeallly  deep programming features. Possibly the most advanced instrument scripting on the market. But it is also exceptionally classical sounding - i.e. quite dry / sharp, some would say cold, and can very difficult to mix. The legato is absolutely gorgeous though, and is highly customizable (you can get extremely natural long / deep bends that no other library has been able to replicate). Tone wise - complete opposite of most modern orchestra libraries, which have a much warmer tone and are much easier to mix with other libraries, especially in modern scores. Note: I use LASS a lot to back up wetter / warmer libraries. It cuts through mixes like no other, so great when you need certain leads or short articulations to cut through a mix. 

Here's a very short example of the LA Scoring Strings tone: (there are some great neo-classical / complex string arrangements done with it that sound incredibly good - it's short articulations, when programmed well, are second to none):

IMO - it can be one of the most beautiful strings libraries around - many, many people are loyal to it's sound - but trying to mix with it - and learning how to program it - it takes a lot of time. Other libraries are much more intuitive and streamlined to just load, play, record and done. Anytime you open LASS you're likely in for hours of engineering. It's definitely a key reason  (along with the very dry tone) why it faded from most conversations. But it's still highly respected, I find mostly with really traditional / classical types.

However, AudioBro eventually released Modern Scoring Strings, which is also exceptionally well programmed / produced, but it still has quite a classical tone, but much warmer (imo) than LASS. Easier to work with & mix with, but requires some heavy manual reading.

Short example (seriously, the portamento / legato in their engine is incredible):

As for Genesis Children's Choir - well, it's just the greatest damn thing ever. It's just a "buy it, you'll never need another children's choir ever again". I played it for days when I first bought it. I'm very biased. I am a little bit concerned about the Eternity demo...as it has a much colder / plasticy sound than the children's choir (especially those sopranos), but hoping it's just the person who did the demo and that it's easy to tone it down a bit.

Anyway - I've always been a big fan of AudioBro. I think they just took a much more classical direction that isn't particularly popular with certain composer crowds (especially VI-Control crowd, which seems to lean much more to the Hollywood sound - seen in the Orchestral Tools / Spitfire Audio obsessions). I totally get it, but I still find AudioBro libraries beautiful in what they do. But in a very specific style.

 

(EDIT: I have never tried their Brass or Drum / Percussion libraries. I honestly don't even know what they sound like. I'm guessing they're very good, but I don't want to listen because then I'll buy them lol.)

Those sound amazing. I don't need another string library, but now I need another string library. 

[locrian]

On 11/16/2023 at 5:14 AM, GoncaloL said:

Cableguys full shapperbox 3         -  79€

FYI:

[Carl Ewing]

13 hours ago, PavlovsCat said:

I think that hobbyists and aspiring pros can be very misled by forums like VI-C where it's run by a developer and commerce motives, personality cults and peer pressure drive a good deal of the conversations and preferences. As BandLab has done a great job at keeping this community very user-centric, that's largely not a problem here.  

I agree - this is a really annoying thing in this business imo. It's also amazing how that type of environment can impact real world trends. When everyone is buying the same brands / libraries, it has major impact on the sound of...say, trailers, or commercials and dramatic scoring. I see it less on the popular music front, perhaps because there's a lot more collaboration going on - where you get more distinct sounds. For example, you can here the same vocal libraries or string libraries or drum / percussion libraries being used over and over again in scoring (it's funny to look back on the 2000-2010 era where every score had Stylus loops and Atmosphere / Omnisphere presets and East West orchestra, then 2010 - 2020 where everything had Heavyocity drums and Spitfire strings / brass), whereas in pop music it's (at least) different singers or musicians and a wider range of engineers, instruments, studios, producers and gear on each album.

The scoring industry really does have a sound - unfortunately - and that is really driven by these libraries and community loyalty to a few specific brands.  And it's not because these brands / libraries are necessarily the best, or even the right library for a particular artist, but because of the marketing / peer pressure...and especially commercial pressure...to buy "the best" and sound like what's in style. But what's in style is largely influenced by what tools are being used the most, which is driven by the same marketing, peer pressure, commercial pressure, which just creates a feedback loop. 

The bonus of all this is that there is a major demand for unique sounding artists - in scoring at least. It's very very easy to stand out. Not surprised guys like Ludwig Goransson (Tenet, Oppenheimer, Black Panther, Mandalorian) or Daniel Pemberton (Into the Spiderverse, Enol Holmes, King Arthur, Michael Mann's upcoming Ferrari) have done so well recently. They don't come from the Remote Control world (Zimmer & Co.), pull from really diverse genres. Goransson produces all Childish Gambino's albums, and has produced a lot of pop & hip-hop - Adele, Timerlake, Kendrick Lamar, etc. No surprise he creates sounds nobody's heard before in scores, and that immediately gets copied & replicated in all the sample libraries...like that pulse from Tenet, which was already common in pop / EDM, but he pulled it into scoring, and has become the new "braaaaams". And Pemberton is very good at pulling from jazz, fusion, funk, electro, avant guard, etc. to create really cool and extremely unique scores that are (imo) way more interesting than the usual composer crew that score basically everything else.

But ya - I do see those forums like VI-Control as extremely toxic, and I find it exceptionally difficult to inject any kind of "outside the box" thinking to any conversation.

Apologies - i kinda rambled there. I'm probably talking out of my *****. Lol.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Carl Ewing

[Carl Ewing]

  

  Ha - it really is a beautiful library. But definitely comes with a warning that if you buy it and first load it up you'll probably be surprised how dry / harsh it sounds.  There's a real wooden texture to it, that's probably closer to the real instruments than most libraries. I rarely ever use it by itself, because I'm just not good enough to mix it / program it properly. I hear demos of it all the time and think "I own that library, but I can't get it to sound anything like that". Ha. 

13 hours ago, Amicus717 said:

Those sound amazing. I don't need another string library, but now I need another string library. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Carl Ewing

[PavlovsCat]

6 hours ago, Carl Ewing said:

But ya - I do see those forums like VI-Control as extremely toxic, and I find it exceptionally difficult to inject any kind of "outside the box" thinking to any conversation.

Your above point nails it. It seems like just about every pro and hobbyist composer/musician and developer in this industry I know of uses that exact word to describe VI-Control: toxic. Even Christian Henson,  a friend of the forum's owner (I was too, but had a major falling out over his ethics since he bought  the forum and I don’t forsee either of our views changing) publicly referred to the forum as toxic and said he has to take breaks between posting there (which, of course,  he needs to do to keep his business's name out there,  but he's made clear that he finds the environment f'ed up) .

Therein also lies the dilemma for amateur composers researching sample libraries. Forums like VI-C are driven by the desire for the forum  owner to optimize revenue, not to optimize around the best and most fair environment for community members. Conversations are largely manipulated through financial motivations and the personality cults that have emerged around even semi pro composers and even around certain developers and you get to this point where honest conversations, especially ones very counter to the forum owner's opinion or the highly manufactured group think opinion are ununwelcome. 

While I'm a businessperson, I still think like a creative person and am a strong believer in the importance of intellectual curiosity and respect for other's viewpoints and the culture that has been carefully cultivated is one of conformity with a very government- controlled media style approach. What I love about this forum is that due to the owner's philosophy, the policies that came out of that and good enforcement, it's user / musician/composer/producer centered, not merchant centered.  Bandlab clearly doesn't care about making revenue from developers for this forum and that's great news. Consequently,  there isn't the personality cults or a culture where diverse thinking is discouraged.  Independent thinkers who might have opinions counter to the norms will get their ideas considered on their merits in this environment, not pushed to conform. As creative people, we should celebrate that. 

We should also realize the reason all of that terrible culture exists, because its highly profitable. Because a bunch of consumers gathered with their wallets in hands ready to purchase is an extremely desirable audience to mine for profit. Twenty years ago or more,  forums were about community for the sake of community,  but forum owners began to realize that communities centered around purchase research are a potential goldmine and that has changed everything -- and that is, very much, not in the interest of those seeking to do research prior to a purchase. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by PavlovsCat

[antler]

As I understand, VI-C is the successor to the Northern Sounds forum (but I could be wrong on that). Back in the day, NS used to have a free orchestral scoring guide that was based on a Rimsky-Korsakov text. I remember following that course; they said they'd eventually make an offline version of it too, but that they'd always keep the online version available. Too bad it disappeared  (along with NS) before the offline version became a thing: I don't in any way claim to know how to write for orchestra, but I did find the material there very useful.

[antler]

On 11/23/2023 at 6:31 PM, Carl Ewing said:

AudioBro's Eternity releases tomorrow at noon (EST). I'm hoping for sub $300 intro price, or cheaper with crossgrade from Genesis Children's Choir.

https://audiobro.com/eternity-adult-choir/

Eternity Complete (Eternity Choir and Eternity Expanded)
$499.00 (38% Off $799.00)

Eternity Adult Choir
$399.00 (20% Off $499.00)

Looks like there's a further discount if you own some of their other products, but it doesn't seem much.

[Carl Ewing]

20 minutes ago, antler said:

Eternity Complete (Eternity Choir and Eternity Expanded)
$499.00 (38% Off $799.00)

Eternity Adult Choir
$399.00 (20% Off $499.00)

Looks like there's a further discount if you own some of their other products, but it doesn't seem much.

Ya - it's $30 discount for owning Genesis ($469). I think it's too high for me considering it just got released and there's absolutely no reviews / detailed walkthroughs. As other forums have pointed out, one could pick up both Audio Imperia Chorus (if you quality for $325 loyalty pricing) and Oceania I & II bundle ($150 sale) for the same price. Having both of those would cover massive amounts of high-quality choir work. And I already know what those sound like / what they can do...and was looking at Chorus before Eternity was announced.

And knowing Audiobro, Eternity will have crazy sales next year. I think I will wait.

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Carl Ewing

[PavlovsCat]

49 minutes ago, antler said:

As I understand, VI-C is the successor to the Northern Sounds forum (but I could be wrong on that). Back in the day, NS used to have a free orchestral scoring guide that was based on a Rimsky-Korsakov text. I remember following that course; they said they'd eventually make an offline version of it too, but that they'd always keep the online version available. Too bad it disappeared  (along with NS) before the offline version became a thing: I don't in any way claim to know how to write for orchestra, but I did find the material there very useful.

That is correct. Frederick, the original owner of VI-C, led the defection from Northern Sounds as the developer owned NS (Garritan being that dev) became increasingly difficult and combative with other devs. Most developers I've talked to -- and I've advised more than 3 dozen, including the current owner of VI-C -- felt that the lesson of NS was that it's too great of a conflict of interest for a developer to own a forum. 

More recently, as the current owner of VI-C has used the forum to attack a couple of competitors pretty viciously, it has caused a reaction in the developer community. To be candid, I've actually spoke to Mike Greene about it and his habit of using the forum to attack competitors and how much it deeply concerns developers. I don't know if it fell on deaf ears, but it sure felt like it. Add to that, VI-C has always been pretty toxic, and Frederck and I had a lot of talks about that and he cared about that (he talked with me because he was trying to get me to persuade devs to spend money advertising at VI-C), but he never had consistent policies or enforcement, because he felt that some of the most toxic community members were also big draws for the forum. So Frederick very famously used to ban some of the top offenders, like a guy named re-peat, that Frederick banned at least 10 times and I famously did try to rally the community that he should be permanently banned after he made some absolutely terrible remarks about a developer who is a personal friend of mine (okay, Kirk Hunter).  Unfortunately, that crowd is friends with Mike and Mike thinks very differently about cyberbullying and the bad behavior Frederick cared about addressing. Hence, why Mike often publicly mocks Frederick's efforts to make VI-C less toxic.  I really don't think it's possible for a small sample developer to run VI-C, a forum focused on sample library buyers researching sample libraries, with his competitors all vying for their money, and remain neutral. The current case is, IMO, just one more big example of why that's a bad idea.

IMO, VI-Control might as well be renamed future Northern Sounds. 

As this forum shows, with good policy and good enforcement, a DAW developer can be a very good steward of an online forum, but I think the odds are against any small sample developer running a forum where his competitors are there and being charged to participate and advertise. It's too great of a conflict of interest and 99% of developers are going to end up showing their bias and doing things that aren't in the best interest of the community over time as is the present case at VI-C. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by PavlovsCat

[satya]

23 hours ago, Carl Ewing said:

As BandLab has done a great job at keeping this community very user-centric, that's largely not a problem here

i was thinking what if bandlab allowed devs to advt in forum ,that would bring them money , but its good that havent done this , i know a lil out of topic but yea just had it in my head