Another Dell Latency Monitor Fail. Advice?

[DCMG]

1 month old Dell XPS 8960 Desktop ( i7 13th Gen CPU, SSD's)

Been a "build your own" guy for 20yrs, decided to throw caution to the wind and see if I could tame a Dell off the shelf. Looking like a mistake. Often but random glitches in CW, LM test are bombing out within 20seconds ( mostly showing Wdf01000.sys , ntoskrnl.exe  and msmpeng.exe as main offenders).

I've done the usual stuff: removed all the Dell Assist stuff, Windows bloat, very lean startup, Defender disabled for now, USB ports and all power settings on full, disabled Bluetooth, Wifi, On board Realtek, tried disabling Speedstep and similar settings. Before I call Dell and get the standard set of responses, any ideas I might be missing? 

Apollo USB was fine with other system, but tried a reinstall for fun. No change. Disabled ethernet as well. Slightly better, but still not good.

Prime95 for 7 hrs. No failure.

I'm stumped.

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by DCMG

[mettelus]

Wdf01000.sys is also linked to automatic network discovery. Even with wifi disabled I am not sure if that is still cycling every 4 seconds or so, but worth shutting off anyway.

There are a truckload of processes set to "automatic" on startup. It can be a grueling task to go through all of those, but a fair portion can be either disabled outright, or set to "manual" so they only start when a program using them is run. Some of those reset themselves to automatic again, so those tend to be pests. With a stock Dell, going through the process list would help but is not a quick endeavor.

[Jack Stoner]

I posted another response on the Dell forums.

 

[DCMG]

I'll close this thread down shortly since we're chasing this down on the DELL forum.

[Jim Roseberry]

The issue you may run into...

Sometimes high DPC Latency can be resolved via a driver update/roll-back... or disabling the device (if its driver is monopolizing the CPU).

Other times, solving DPC Latency issues requires tweaking BIOS parameters.

Many off-the-shelf motherboards don't expose the necessary parameters.

In this scenario, there's unfortunately no solution (short of swapping hardware).

[DCMG]

7 hours ago, Jim Roseberry said:

The issue you may run into...

Sometimes high DPC Latency can be resolved via a driver update/roll-back... or disabling the device (if its driver is monopolizing the CPU).

Other times, solving DPC Latency issues requires tweaking BIOS parameters.

Many off-the-shelf motherboards don't expose the necessary parameters.

In this scenario, there's unfortunately no solution (short of swapping hardware).

Thanks Jim- Does seem to be a stripped down BIOS compared to others I've seen over the years. Little or no CPU/RAM performance parameters. You can disable onboard audio in bios, yet still see an associated service active on the system. Some of the Dell System apps are zombies that keep coming back

BTW, I compiled 8 LatMon tests and found it was 98% of the time these guys:

ISRs:   Wdf01000.sys
DPCs:   ntoskrnl.exe with occasional ndis.sys 

Page Faults: msmpeng.exe 
 

It was a shortcut to think I could go "off the shelf" and pare back to a lean system, but I think I may have to cut my losses.

[mettelus]

Another COTS aspect to be wary of is that some of them even have hardware that is proprietary. For users that just use them for "what they are" (target market), they can be okay; but folks who need to tailor a machine, they can become problematic. A lot of machines sold in bulk to companies fall into this category, and are cycled out after 5 years.

I got a weird call from the IT department 20 years ago saying "We are evaluating workstations and want to see it you can crash it." After the "Um, okay," I went over and it took about 30 seconds, but I told them when you put a stessing algorythm on a computer that has run programs with known memory leaks it will go down. Unfortunately the programs I did that with were commonly used by all engineers at that location, but those issues have since been resolved.

[DCMG]

Interesting. I guess I thought that as long as they had a solid MB/CPU/Ram at the core, I could tweak anything on the margins and have a great machine. As the two other helpful members suggested on the Dell forums, a clean install of Windows might bypass all that stuff.  "might" is a gamble. Dell seems to have their footprints on not only the W11 install but bios and MB. Still within return window so I've opted for doing so and DIY or having someone else do the basic build. 

Gives me a chance to re-eval CPU as well. This on had 13th Gen Intel i7-13700K. I hear people getting similar results with the i5 as well. Time to start researching again where the sweet spot is on CPU choice. Any input appreciated!!

Thanks again to everyone who chimed in. Great community here.

[Jack Stoner]

As I noted on the Dell forum, in order to get a useable machine for specific applications such as DAW, users are doing a clean install.  Windows OS, needed device drivers and DAW applications (and Latency Mon).

That's what I had to do on a Dell laptop to have a clean DAW machine (actually a dual boot - 1. The original Dell disc image and 2. The clean install for DAW use).

 

[DCMG]

1 hour ago, Jack Stoner said:

As I noted on the Dell forum, in order to get a useable machine for specific applications such as DAW, users are doing a clean install.  Windows OS, needed device drivers and DAW applications (and Latency Mon).

That's what I had to do on a Dell laptop to have a clean DAW machine (actually a dual boot - 1. The original Dell disc image and 2. The clean install for DAW use).

 

I think you're right.  Had I known, I wouldn't have spent 2 weeks installing/configuring/authorizing all my programs and plugins on that stock Dell OS. Should have just wiped it at the outset. Should have asked around a bit more before pulling the trigger.

So I'm in my return window. 

I have to do a fresh OS + all audio installs again *either way*. So you have to ask yourself if it's better to double down on the DELL system and do it there...or just build a new one as you've always done ( with good results). When I weigh it, the latter is a better use of time.

I was going to delete this thread, but it may be helpful to others who weigh the option of DIY v off the shelf, so I'll leave it for now.

Really do appreciate all the input on kicking this around.

 

[David Baay]

FWIW, on my Dell laptop, the main cause of DPC latency spikes is ACPI.SYS which is involved in power management and, as such, is highly "active" in a laptop - even when it's plugged in - as compared to an AC-only desktop. I have not had any such problems with my Dell desktops. I researched and tried a lot of tweaks to address it, but only succeeded in creating other problems like the laptop failing to sleep/hibernate when it should and running its battery flat overnight.

Since the laptop is not my main DAW, and doesn't need to deliver the lowest possible latency for input monitoring, it's not really a big deal for me. I do get the odd crackle once in a while, but actual engine-stopping dropouts are rare.

EDIT: Looking back through my notes, I see that I have had spikes from Wdf01000.sys, and putting the laptop in Airplane Mode seemed to eliminate it at the time.

Edited August 24, 2023 by David Baay

[DCMG]

I never got dropouts, but substantial crackles were common.  Not inspiring for clients as they sit and listen to what we're working on

My install list is not small, but it's  only stuff I really use. Not a bunch of cracked plugins from 2005, all reasonably current and paid for. I'm guessing that something installed didn't play with Dell-influenced OS or the Dell hardware. That's the stuff I have to use, so if the Dell isn't playing nice it has to go.  My main stuff is CW, Studio Pro, Omni/Trilian/Keyscape, some FabFilter stuff, Boz, TRacks and Battery. Pretty lean, and that grouping has worked well on the last 4 system iterations I've had, so something in the Dell install just didn't play well. No reason to fight with it. By tonight my previous system will be back to being fully useable until I can decide how to approach this upgrade. I'd love to find a custom builder that would just do a MB/CPU/Memory/Case with testing and then let me do the rest. 

Again, appreciate all the input on this one!! 

 

[Jack Stoner]

I considered a Dell when I built my last system,  but the limited expansion and proprietary hardware nixed it (Dell uses 6 pin and 8 pin motherboard power connections not the standard 24 pin ATX).   Even though I'm on the  Dell forum .

[DCMG]

1 hour ago, Jack Stoner said:

I considered a Dell when I built my last system,  but the limited expansion and proprietary hardware nixed it (Dell uses 6 pin and 8 pin motherboard power connections not the standard 24 pin ATX).   Even though I'm on the  Dell forum .

Interesting. Yeah, that's partly the reason I'm deciding to bail. Chances are this isn't the last time I would run into some proprietary Dell detail that would limit options. I think for anyone with limitless patience and/or mainstream needs, the units are nice. The initial experience of firing it up and getting it set up for general use was really easy. For their target audience, they do a good job.

[Jack Stoner]

11 hours ago, DCMG said:

Interesting. Yeah, that's partly the reason I'm deciding to bail. Chances are this isn't the last time I would run into some proprietary Dell detail that would limit options. I think for anyone with limitless patience and/or mainstream needs, the units are nice. The initial experience of firing it up and getting it set up for general use was really easy. For their target audience, they do a good job.

Another option is to have Jim Roseberry build you a custom DAW machine.  He is THE MAN!

[DCMG]

12 hours ago, Jack Stoner said:

Another option is to have Jim Roseberry build you a custom DAW machine.  He is THE MAN!

I don't really mind the DIY route but the stress of deciding what components will play well together is what I've grown weary of.  I'd love to have someone build the board/CPU/Ram and case and then let me do the rest, but that's not a business model that makes sense for anyone  However...I've noticed Jim also does consultations, and that would be worth its weight gold. The experience needed to choose the best combination of parts/brands/specs is a skillset worth paying for. I think I just talked myself into that! ?

[Starship Krupa]

I have a soft spot for Dells; they're built like tanks and often available for crazy low prices on the used market due to their popularity in corporate environments. An Optiplex 7010 was my main DAW for years and I produced some good music on it.

Having said that, yes, they are locked down as far as BIOS options. The UI hasn't changed in probably 20 years. Companies don't want someone's gamer kid coming in on the weekend and overclocking the CPU and memory. And they are built for reliability, not speed.

But with some coaxing and tuning, they can make decent DAW or gaming rigs (the latter when coupled with a decent graphics card). Fan control is one of the things that's hard to do on Dells, which limits such options for DAW use.

mspeng.exe is Defender. Defender is set up by default to check every file that is read or written to disk. Since it's a Dell, you likely have Pro, if not, licenses to upgrade to Pro can be had for under $10. Pro will allow you to permanently disable realtime file scanning. Even if you don't have Pro, Windows will still allow you to exclude directories from realtime scanning. I suggest excluding all directories that have to do with DAW work, such as the DAW's program directory and project directories, VST's, sample locations, etc. And don't worry about the security aspect, even if you disable realtime scanning, Windows will still scan files on your drive, just not constantly.

Also, turn Speed Step back on, along with all the other Intel features EXCEPT C-states.

One last thing: Dell is known for really pushing their own drivers. This is sometimes a good thing, they tend to work well with Dell's hardware. However, I have had it happen that Intel's own driver makes for better latency. Sometimes it's the other way around. I once had latency go to hell on my Optiplex, so I fired up LatencyMon and found that ndis.sys was the culprit. That means networking, so I rolled back the NIC driver and everything was fine.

And plus one on a wipe and OS install if you can do it.

In summary, though, if the system's use is going to primarily DAW, there are probably better choices for the money than Dell. You pay a premium for a Dell, and that money can be worth it if you're buying a dozen of them for employees to use in a business environment. Solid as hell, last for years. Like I said, they are a killer deal on the used/refurbished market. You can get what was a powerhouse system 5 years ago for peanuts (partly due to the Windows 11 security incompatibility).

With a DAW, you might want to put that money into a quieter case and a mobo that allows more fan control. Quiet PSU like a Corsair, Thermalright fans. If you're gaming or doing video NLE, a better graphics card that's smart enough to spin its fans down to zero when it's not under load.

If you haven't partsed up a PC in 10 years or more, you'll likely find that it's much simpler these days in a gamer-driven market. Companies make their components now with an eye toward ease of custom builds. It used to be they assumed that components would be going into pre-builts done by professional integrators.

My $.02 after using Dells for decades. Typing this on my corporate-retired Dell Latitude....

Edited August 29, 2023 by Starship Krupa

[Jim Roseberry]

19 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said:

Also, turn Speed Step back on, along with all the other Intel features EXCEPT C-states.

You don't always want Speed Step and Speed Shift enabled (totally depends on the motherboard/CPU and the audio interface).

Will cause audio glitches with some configurations.

[Starship Krupa]

Just now, Jim Roseberry said:

You don't always want Speed Step and Speed Shift enabled (totally depends on the motherboard/CPU and the audio interface).

Will cause audio glitches with some configurations.

Ah, thanks. I'm going by my old Dell Optiplex. When I turned on everything but C-States, it actually overclocked its i7-3770 a little, and nailed it hard at that frequency. I thought I was slick for figuring out how to overclock a Dell ?.

I guess as with every BIOS tweak, the thing to do is test it well before and after and go with what works.

[DCMG]

On 8/29/2023 at 3:44 PM, Starship Krupa said:

" Windows will still allow you to exclude directories from realtime scanning. I suggest excluding all directories that have to do with DAW work"

Yep, did that.

"Also, turn Speed Step back on, along with all the other Intel features EXCEPT C-states"

Did that.

"found that ndis.sys was the culprit. That means networking, so I rolled back the NIC driver and everything was fine"

Same item came up. I tried Intel drivers instead; no major difference.

"And plus one on a wipe and OS install if you can do it"

I was still within 30 days; Figured if I had to do a total reinstall of all my audio stuff, why roll the dice again on the Dell. Sent it back. I did reset the OS to "out of box state:. For giggles I ran Latency Monitor on the stock OS and it redlined in about 15 seconds

I don't mind going the DIY route again, but I might do a consult with Jim to guide me on a few of the pieces.

Appreciate the input!

 

On 8/29/2023 at 3:44 PM, Starship Krupa said: