recording with Autotune and input monitoring

[Will.]

20 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

This said, you *can* get conflicts if you try to run other apps at different sample rates at the same time as Cakewalk.

Well, there you answer your own question to why you cant for the life of it workout why your sample rate of your interface in windows need to be the same as your asio sample rate within CbB to run Autotune live for recording without any issues. 

When you set your device as the default audio card in windows - windows automatically reverts its drivers to use with your interface. Within windows i only get 44k at 24bit and 48k at 24bit with my 2i2. So that tells me that windows uses my interface as the primary audio card by converting its drivers to be used with the device. Once this is not match I get dropout during recording with Autotune enabled. 

If i match the  Asio with the drivers windows use with my interface, GUESS WHAT . . .  NOMORE DROPOUTS WITH AUTOTUNE! Its that simple and straight foward. 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Will.

[Jordi]

Well finally, testing with my Presonus audio usb 96 i can record a track with autotune without dropouts, i can configure it in windows 24 bits depth mode,

It seems works better then my Motu, i can down latency to 0,3 ms in Cakewalk.  No problems with input monitoring. Maybe i will do a test changing bits depth in windows.

But my question is: Why I can set my Motu in 24 bits depth in windows audio settings? any of 2 Motu Ultralite i use.

Thanks to all people to reply and help me, i see there are many opinions about audio settings in windows,It would be nice to be able to unify them will be fine .

Of course i know many of tips the people talk in this topic, It seemed like I was a newbie to cakewalk.

This is not the case, I have been working with Cakewalk for many years without any problem, but I wanted to find out to what extent a voice could be recorded with Autotune in real time as rappers do and I had never tried this thoroughly.

Thanks one more time all people to help me, I hope this forum will continue working after the next changesI hope this forum.

[Lord Tim]

1 hour ago, Will. said:

Well, there you answer your own question to why you cant for the life of it workout why your sample rate of your interface in windows need to be the same as your asio sample rate within CbB to run Autotune live for recording without any issues. 

When you set your device as the default audio card in windows - windows automatically reverts its drivers to use with your interface. Within windows i only get 44k at 24bit and 48k at 24bit with my 2i2. So that tells me that windows uses my interface as the primary audio card by converting its drivers to be used with the device. Once this is not match I get dropout during recording with Autotune enabled. 

If i match the  Asio with the drivers windows use with my interface, GUESS WHAT . . .  NOMORE DROPOUTS WITH AUTOTUNE! Its that simple and straight foward. 

How are you using Autotune outside of Cakewalk so that the Windows sample rate even comes into play?

Cakewalk will force the interface to conform to its preferred settings in Preferences, independently to Windows. If you're recording live audio within Cakewalk, why does it even matter that system audio - which ISN'T ASIO - is set to something else? Unless you're actively switching to something else while you're recording, which is generally a bad idea anyway, how is it even coming into play?

Edited June 28, 2023 by Lord Tim

[Jordi]

38 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

How are you using Autotune outside of Cakewalk so that the Windows sample rate even comes into play?

Cakewalk will force the interface to conform to its preferred settings in Preferences, independently to Windows. If you're recording live audio within Cakewalk, why does it even matter that system audio - which ISN'T ASIO - is set to something else? Unless you're actively switching to something else while you're recording, which is generally a bad idea anyway, how is it even coming into play?

I use autotune in Cakewalk, but there are people talking about the rate and bit depth must be the same in Windows settings and Cakewalk

[Lord Tim]

22 minutes ago, Jordi said:

I use autotune in Cakewalk, but there are people talking about the rate and bit depth must be the same in Windows settings and Cakewalk

So I see in this thread. But it's actually not the case, unless you're trying to use some other software that plays audio at the same time as you're using Cakewalk, which I assume you're not. If you're recording vocals, why would you be?

All of that stuff is an entirely different conversation to what you're trying to do.

As I said in my first post in the thread, so long as you have your interface's ASIO drivers installed properly, selected in Cakewalk in Preferences, and you've set your latency as low as it'll allow you to go and you've disabled any direct monitoring in your interface's control panel, then all you need to do is click the Input Echo on the track you're recording on to hear the autotune effect. That's it.

If you want to record the track with the effect on it, you do need to route it to an Aux track or something like that and record that Aux track, because you can't record live effects to a track directly, but you can still apply those effects after the recording is done.

But all of the sample rate stuff, live effects, etc. are all done entirely inside Cakewalk and doesn't really have much to do with Windows sound settings.

[msmcleod]

17 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

So I see in this thread. But it's actually not the case, unless you're trying to use some other software that plays audio at the same time as you're using Cakewalk, which I assume you're not. If you're recording vocals, why would you be?

All of that stuff is an entirely different conversation to what you're trying to do.

As I said in my first post in the thread, so long as you have your interface's ASIO drivers installed properly, selected in Cakewalk in Preferences, and you've set your latency as low as it'll allow you to go and you've disabled any direct monitoring in your interface's control panel, then all you need to do is click the Input Echo on the track you're recording on to hear the autotune effect. That's it.

If you want to record the track with the effect on it, you do need to route it to an Aux track or something like that and record that Aux track, because you can't record live effects to a track directly, but you can still apply those effects after the recording is done.

But all of the sample rate stuff, live effects, etc. are all done entirely inside Cakewalk and doesn't really have much to do with Windows sound settings.

If you're also using your main audio interface as your Windows audio device, although it doesn't matter what bit depth Windows has your interface set to, most interfaces don't support different sample rates between Windows and ASIO.   So it is important to make sure the Windows sample rate is set to your Cakewalk project sample rate.

Also, although Cakewalk will attempt to set the sample rate of the interface to match your project, not all interfaces support this and will require opening the ASIO panel to change the settings.

Of course all of this can be avoided by using your on-board sound device for Windows audio, and your audio interface exclusively in Cakewalk.

If you need both to go through your speakers, get a Big Knob to easily switch between them...

 

[Lord Tim]

Fair call about the sample rate, Focusrite does swap this automatically though.

My point I was making though was this kind of went off on some tangent somewhere that wasn't really related to recording a live effect inside Cakewalk, rather than making sure the drivers were correctly installed and input monitoring was set up. It's like not being able to start your car and rather than asking if someone has the key in the ignition, it turns into a discussion about different fuel types - which can be very important - but is really muddying the waters with getting the task done.

[Jordi]

1 hour ago, Lord Tim said:

Fair call about the sample rate, Focusrite does swap this automatically though.

My point I was making though was this kind of went off on some tangent somewhere that wasn't really related to recording a live effect inside Cakewalk, rather than making sure the drivers were correctly installed and input monitoring was set up. It's like not being able to start your car and rather than asking if someone has the key in the ignition, it turns into a discussion about different fuel types - which can be very important - but is really muddying the waters with getting the task done.

It didn't really change, someone commented that the windows audio settings should match Cakewalk's even though they are different drivers, so that there are no latencies, that is: Sample rate and Bits depth, when I try to put the windows audio settings in 24 bits using my Motu Ultralite Mk3 Hybrid, to coincide with my projects in cakewalk, it only gave me the possibility to put 16 bits, this generated more conversations between users to find out why I couldn't.

[John Vere]

5 hours ago, Xoo said:

Windows DOES NOT use ASIO

We can assume this but then here’s a aspect of this I don’t fully understand. 
 I regularly will export a project and when it’s finished I double click on the file which opens Windows media player and plays the song. The audio is playing through my interfaces outputs. 
Cakewalk is still open and therefore the ASIO audio engine is still running . 
So this implies to me that Windows Media Player is also using ASIO.? Or? 
A new interest factor that @Starship Krupa pointed out to me is the Windows Audio Mixer. Cakewalk in ASIO and WASAPI exclusive bypasses it. Other open audio apps like WMP don’t.  Cakewalk running WASAPI shared also is controlled by the mixer. 
So my theory is Cakewalk is using ASIO which bypasses the mixers controls but other apps like WMP or Chrome are simultaneously using WASAPI shared mode and the mixer is we’re this is summed and sent on to the USB output to the interface. 
Take note that I don’t check the take exclusive control options. 

Anyhow the red flag as I said is almost all audio interfaces these days run at 24 bit. You can’t even choose anything else.  So the ASIO driver is not installed correctly.  
And the OP still didn’t respond about the Motu Control Panel. That is a key point. If the driver is installed properly the Control panel will tell you all is working.  
 

Edited June 28, 2023 by JohnnyV

[Xoo]

25 minutes ago, JohnnyV said:

So this implies to me that Windows Media Player is also using ASIO.? Or? 

No.  It uses a different software path to the interface.

[JnTuneTech]

3 hours ago, Xoo said:

No.  It uses a different software path to the interface.

Yes - and it almost always is master-controlled by the mixer/driver interface of the sound device you are using.

I was going to say that this is getting off the topic of the OP, but really it is still relevant, because unless you understand & have full control over how your DAW sounds are routed through your interface, getting live input monitoring to work the way you want can be difficult.  -Generally speaking, the more i/o options your interface can provide, the more you need to discover how it works and how to route the options.  -If you only have a 2-channel interface, it can be simple, but add separate headphone and/or line outs, etc., and your routing paths can get hard to understand, unless you spend some time learning your specific interface mixing options.

@JohnnyV -On my particular current interface, for instance, I chose to route the WASAPI feed from Windows outputs to a mix that always appears in my headphones, via a driver setting and an interface mixer routing. And for me, it causes no obvious problems with Cakewalk so far as I can tell, to run both driver paths simultaneously, but that varies from interface to interface, so it is not a general answer for everyone. The same goes for how I route my interface options when using live input monitoring, versus the interface direct monitoring, for instance. As I always seem to say - it's all about the routing, - understanding, often testing that, is key for many things beyond simple recording & playback.

[John Vere]

8 hours ago, Xoo said:

No.  It uses a different software path to the interface.

If you read the rest of my post you would see I came to this possible conclusion as well. As I said, it's not exactly 100% clear. 

9 hours ago, JohnnyV said:

So my theory is Cakewalk is using ASIO which bypasses the mixers controls but other apps like WMP or Chrome are simultaneously using WASAPI shared mode and the mixer is we’re this is summed and sent on to the USB output to the interface. 

Any how I'm waiting to hear from the OP so they can confirm they have tried re installing the latest driver. 

[John Vere]

10 hours ago, Jordi said:

It didn't really change, someone commented that the windows audio settings should match Cakewalk's even though they are different drivers, so that there are no latencies,

That was Will. I'm not sure why he tossed that at you even though I agree it's a very good idea as far as Sample rates go. I recommend people keep everything at 48. There's also a minor improvement in latency with 48. 

Clock rates need to match when you switch apps. Bit Depth doesn't conflict. Cakewalk can run audio using multiple bit depths.  

You are trying to sort out why your bit depth is only 16 so windows setting are outside of where you need to look to fix this. If your interface was 10 years old, then ya, it might be 16 bit, but it's not ( or is it?)  

Edited June 29, 2023 by JohnnyV

[Lord Tim]

Yeah, the big problem with this thread is there's 2 entirely different conversations going on that are being conflated, making each one of the solutions seem like they're mixed in together somehow. There's been some very informative and great suggestions in the thread but if taken out of context, those solutions are just making things more confusing.

 

Problem 1: The OP wants to record vocals through Autotune with no latency.

Problem 2: His interface is somehow stuck at 16 bits.

 

Let's address Problem 2 first:

Cakewalk is using an ASIO driver to get the sound into it. It's separate to Windows audio (Windows doesn't use ASIO), but as was mentioned, it's generally a good idea to have the sample rate the same for both the ASIO driver and Windows audio if you're using the same device for both things. 

This is usually set in your audio interface control panel software.

For example. in my Focusrite control panel, if I change from 44100 to 88200 as the sample rate, the Windows audio settings will give me different options as to what I can select.

Here is my control panel with 44100 set for the sample rate:

And this is what Windows says is available to the device:

But if I change my Focusrite to 88200, as seen here:

 

... the first thing that happens is Windows does this:

... and then once I do check the properties of the device in Windows again, I see these options:

 

Why am I telling you this?

Like was mentioned in the thread and in my post, your need to have your interface installed correctly first, with the correct manufacturer's supplied drivers, and you do your initial settings inside your audio interface's control panel. If you haven't got your MOTU's control panel software installed, do that first, and look for the setting in there.

This should change over any Windows settings automatically, but as was suggested, it's a good idea to have your Windows audio match your MOTU's settings just to be extra safe, to avoid any possible mismatches. What you're seeing in that Windows speaker properties stuff really has no bearing on what's coming into Cakewalk at all, it's an ENTIRELY different driver and different audio path, but in the weird case that some other application is using your audio device, having them match can stop some issues. Unlikely if you're just recording a vocal track with nothing else playing, however, but it's still generally a good idea.

The key takeaway here is that your MUST have your proper MOTU drivers and control panel software that you downloaded from the MOTU site installed first. It's always a good idea to check back to see if there's any updates to the software too, so you have the latest drivers, control panel and firmware installed. If you're unable to switch out of 16 bits, this is a good place to start looking to fix it.

This all has nothing to do with the question asked in the first post, however.

 

So going back to Problem 1 ("Is there a way to configure Cakewalk to be able to record a vocal track, using autotune in real time with no latency via input monitoring?"):

This was answered in the thread, but I'll repeat it here: yes and no.

If you insert your Autotune effect into the track's FX Bin and record, you won't hear it live unless you click the Input Echo button (the one next to the Record Arm button) as seen here:

(I'm using Graillon as my Autotune effect in this example, but this works for any effect in the bin)

This will NOT record the effect, it'll only stream the audio through it as it records. Additionally, you may hear your input (mic) audio playing along with it because your interface is likely playing what it hears too. You need to turn off any direct monitoring or mute any channels in your MOTU control panel so the ONLY thing you're hearing is coming through this track with Input Echo enabled.

What you'll actually record is the raw voice, but when the track is played back, it'll be playing through the effect so you'll hear it doing the tuning. If you want to apply that effect to the track, go to Process > Apply Effect > Audio Effects.

If you want to record this in real time, you need to set up an Aux track, like in this example:

So you would set up Track 1 as your input coming from your microphone and insert the Autotune effect in the FX Bin of that track. Then set the output of Track 1 to go to a new Aux track (Aux 1 in this example). And then you would record Aux 1. That will allow it to record the effect live.

It's a bit of a workaround and it would be nice to have a "record FX in place" option where the signal flow is altered to come in after the FX Bin, but that's for a different discussion thread.

Hopefully that actually gets to the question itself and answers it.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Lord Tim

[Jordi]

Reply from Motu supoort:

Thanks for connecting with us. This is expected when using the WDM driver for this unit - you can't change the bit depth via Windows Sound Settings, unfortunately. In your DAW, however, this is possible if you're using the ASIO driver.

Best,
Matt - MOTU

[Jordi]

9 hours ago, Lord Tim said:

Yeah, the big problem with this thread is there's 2 entirely different conversations going on that are being conflated, making each one of the solutions seem like they're mixed in together somehow. There's been some very informative and great suggestions in the thread but if taken out of context, those solutions are just making things more confusing.

 

Problem 1: The OP wants to record vocals through Autotune with no latency.

Problem 2: His interface is somehow stuck at 16 bits.

 

Let's address Problem 2 first:

Cakewalk is using an ASIO driver to get the sound into it. It's separate to Windows audio (Windows doesn't use ASIO), but as was mentioned, it's generally a good idea to have the sample rate the same for both the ASIO driver and Windows audio if you're using the same device for both things. 

This is usually set in your audio interface control panel software.

For example. in my Focusrite control panel, if I change from 44100 to 88200 as the sample rate, the Windows audio settings will give me different options as to what I can select.

Here is my control panel with 44100 set for the sample rate:

And this is what Windows says is available to the device:

But if I change my Focusrite to 88200, as seen here:

 

... the first thing that happens is Windows does this:

... and then once I do check the properties of the device in Windows again, I see these options:

 

Why am I telling you this?

Like was mentioned in the thread and in my post, your need to have your interface installed correctly first, with the correct manufacturer's supplied drivers, and you do your initial settings inside your audio interface's control panel. If you haven't got your MOTU's control panel software installed, do that first, and look for the setting in there.

This should change over any Windows settings automatically, but as was suggested, it's a good idea to have your Windows audio match your MOTU's settings just to be extra safe, to avoid any possible mismatches. What you're seeing in that Windows speaker properties stuff really has no bearing on what's coming into Cakewalk at all, it's an ENTIRELY different driver and different audio path, but in the weird case that some other application is using your audio device, having them match can stop some issues. Unlikely if you're just recording a vocal track with nothing else playing, however, but it's still generally a good idea.

The key takeaway here is that your MUST have your proper MOTU drivers and control panel software that you downloaded from the MOTU site installed first. It's always a good idea to check back to see if there's any updates to the software too, so you have the latest drivers, control panel and firmware installed. If you're unable to switch out of 16 bits, this is a good place to start looking to fix it.

This all has nothing to do with the question asked in the first post, however.

 

So going back to Problem 1 ("Is there a way to configure Cakewalk to be able to record a vocal track, using autotune in real time with no latency via input monitoring?"):

This was answered in the thread, but I'll repeat it here: yes and no.

If you insert your Autotune effect into the track's FX Bin and record, you won't hear it live unless you click the Input Echo button (the one next to the Record Arm button) as seen here:

(I'm using Graillon as my Autotune effect in this example, but this works for any effect in the bin)

This will NOT record the effect, it'll only stream the audio through it as it records. Additionally, you may hear your input (mic) audio playing along with it because your interface is likely playing what it hears too. You need to turn off any direct monitoring or mute any channels in your MOTU control panel so the ONLY thing you're hearing is coming through this track with Input Echo enabled.

What you'll actually record is the raw voice, but when the track is played back, it'll be playing through the effect so you'll hear it doing the tuning. If you want to apply that effect to the track, go to Process > Apply Effect > Audio Effects.

If you want to record this in real time, you need to set up an Aux track, like in this example:

So you would set up Track 1 as your input coming from your microphone and insert the Autotune effect in the FX Bin of that track. Then set the output of Track 1 to go to a new Aux track (Aux 1 in this example). And then you would record Aux 1. That will allow it to record the effect live.

It's a bit of a workaround and it would be nice to have a "record FX in place" option where the signal flow is altered to come in after the FX Bin, but that's for a different discussion thread.

Hopefully that actually gets to the question itself and answers it.

Thanks your explanation, but i know how to record to an auxiliar track, i know how work the input monitoring, my one only question is about to get a low latency without dropouts when i insert autotune in a track an active the input monitoring because the singer wnat to listen her voice with the famous autotune Cher effect like all rapers and reggeton singers do it.

I check windows audio settings in 3 different computer with 2 different Motu Ultralite Audio card, the same result: 16 bits depth.

Motu support tell me today this is right. This is expected when using the WDM driver for this unit - you can't change the bit depth via Windows Sound Settings, unfortunately. In your DAW, however, this is possible if you're using the ASIO driver.

the solution for me is to use the Presonus Usb 96, it work ok to get low latency without dropouts with autotune or other effects.

[John Vere]

Obviously the Motu tech support person is a Mac user and has not updated his/ her knowledge of Windows WASAPI drivers. 
I was assuming this is a brand new audio interface. How old is the Motu?  You are calling it a Card?  

[JnTuneTech]

8 hours ago, Jordi said:

the solution for me is to use the Presonus Usb 96, it work ok to get low latency without dropouts with autotune or other effects.

That is great to hear, it's good that is working for you. -I suppose most of the suggestions here were only meant to help, but it can be confusing, as each person has a different sound device, and system, and probably different auto-tune software. Try not to take it too personally, as most folks here really just wanted to help.

In that vein - if it helps any, when I use auto tune, and vocoder fx software live on my Cakewalk performance projects, I always use ASIO drivers with Cakewalk. And then, I test the auto tune software at low latency settings on my audio device - using the audio device settings app, to see how little latency I can get away with - in each specific case (project, plugins, latency settings). Once I know what combination works without dropouts, I stick with that, and practice it before performing or presenting it to others, to be as sure as I can about it being reliable. -That's what works for me, anyway.

FYI - In the past, on older systems, I tended to use higher latency ASIO settings to escape audio dropouts, and just mix the fx wet-only output with the audio interface direct monitoring, and just factor in the delay compensation needed manually.  -That doesn't always work well though with fx like auto tune in general, but on the other hand, it can add its own unique effects, and in fact is often an option that can then be subtracted from the fx mix itself (amount of delayed dry signal).  -Again though, there are many, many ways to go about it, and most all the comments here are directed at trying to suggest solutions - even if they don't seem to apply to what you are experiencing - so, just hang in there, use what works for you!

[Lord Tim]

13 hours ago, Jordi said:

Thanks your explanation, but i know how to record to an auxiliar track, i know how work the input monitoring, my one only question is about to get a low latency without dropouts when i insert autotune in a track an active the input monitoring because the singer wnat to listen her voice with the famous autotune Cher effect like all rapers and reggeton singers do it.

I check windows audio settings in 3 different computer with 2 different Motu Ultralite Audio card, the same result: 16 bits depth.

Motu support tell me today this is right. This is expected when using the WDM driver for this unit - you can't change the bit depth via Windows Sound Settings, unfortunately. In your DAW, however, this is possible if you're using the ASIO driver.

the solution for me is to use the Presonus Usb 96, it work ok to get low latency without dropouts with autotune or other effects.

Glad it was all sorted out   

Weird that the MOTU was stuck at 16 bits, but I guess it is very Mac-centric.

One of the reasons I did my post (besides trying to help) was that a lot of people read these threads looking for solutions to their problems, and it's easy to miss the really great and helpful replies that people have done in all the confusion. I wanted to get it all straight for anyone who has run into the same problems or wants to do the same technique.

[Jordi]

8 hours ago, Lord Tim said:

Glad it was all sorted out   

Weird that the MOTU was stuck at 16 bits, but I guess it is very Mac-centric.

One of the reasons I did my post (besides trying to help) was that a lot of people read these threads looking for solutions to their problems, and it's easy to miss the really great and helpful replies that people have done in all the confusion. I wanted to get it all straight for anyone who has run into the same problems or wants to do the same technique.

If it is difficult to understand from a company like Motu,
It is appreciated the help you give and the time you spend to explain everything in such detail, I am sure that more people can use these explanations and they are welcome.