Bapu Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 Imma have to order more popcorn due to the several threads here on this subject. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keni Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 2 hours ago, Byron Dickens said: Lemme get this straight: people are so upset that they are going to have to start paying for Cakewalk/ Sonar that they are going to abandon it and switch to another DAW. That they will have to pay for. The concept of logic is lost on some people. Amazing how people self-flagellate due to displaced anger! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bapu Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 27 minutes ago, Keni said: Amazing how people self-flagellate due to displaced anger! You can pretty much see this on TV daily. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eusebio Rufian-Zilbermann Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 (edited) On 6/7/2023 at 4:30 PM, PavlovsCat said: Bandlab merely purchased the intellectual property of the dissolved company. To throw my hat in the ring with analogies, it's like buying a bike from a man who tells you, "I will give you free maintenance for your bike for the remainder of my life!" However, he ends up dying six months later and his son sells all of his bike maintenance tools to a neighbor. So you track down the late seller's neighbor and angrily demand that he honor the agreement of the now deceased seller of the bike. There are many important details here - Gibson ceased active development and production of Cakewalk branded products in order to focus on their Philips brand (side note: I have vague recollections of a person remaining like a solitary hero and "keeping some lights on", although it's probably not relevant for this discussion) - Is this the same as "the company being dissolved"? In your analogy I think this would be more like the bike seller deciding that he doesn't care anymore about the Honda bike that he sold you and he is going to focus on Harleys instead, not a good reason for your not getting maintenance anymore . Was Cakewalk even an independent company at this point or was it a division of Gibson? Another detail is whether the "lifetime updates" refer to the lifetime of the company or the product. The Cakewalk acquisition included not only the source code but also the goodwill (branding and name recognition), are the promises "attached" to the goodwill and carried over? In any case, when I say I agree that the promise should be honored, that's simply my opinion on what should be the "morally right end result". There are others in this forum who are lawyers so I'll defer to them for legal opinions, if we even have enough info. There are probably lots of details that need to be determined first - do the contracts between Gibson and Bandlab have any clauses that impact these obligations? did Gibson fail to properly disclose information at the time of the sale? If the responsibility was not transferred does it mean it is still on Gibson and they should now pay Bandlab so that they can meet their obligation? Besides, the legal aspects may well be irrelevant considering that it may be quite expensive compared to the possible payback. Edited June 9, 2023 by Eusebio Rufian-Zilbermann 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keni Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 1 hour ago, Bapu said: You can pretty much see this on TV daily. I love to watch... Not participate! ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InstrEd Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 3 hours ago, Bapu said: Imma have to order more popcorn due to the several threads here on this subject. Yellow or White Popcorn? Asking as maybe we should split a 50lb bag ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byron Dickens Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 35 minutes ago, Eusebio Rufian-Zilbermann said: There are many important details here - Gibson ceased active development and production of Cakewalk branded products in order to focus on their Philips brand (side note: I have vague recollections of a person remaining like a solitary hero and "keeping some lights on", although it's probably not relevant for this discussion) - Is this the same as "the company being dissolved"? In your analogy I think this would be more like the bike seller deciding that he doesn't care anymore about the Honda bike that he sold you and he is going to focus on Harleys instead, not a good reason for your not getting maintenance anymore . Was Cakewalk even an independent company at this point or was it a division of Gibson? Another detail is whether the "lifetime updates" refer to the lifetime of the company or the product. The Cakewalk acquisition included not only the source code but also the goodwill (branding and name recognition), are the promises "attached" to the goodwill and carried over? In any case, when I say I agree that the promise should be honored, that's simply my opinion on what should be the "morally right end result". There are others in this forum who are lawyers so I'll defer to them for legal opinions, if we even have enough info. There are probably lots of details that need to be determined first - do the contracts between Gibson and Bandlab have any clauses that impact these obligations? did Gibson fail to properly disclose information at the time of the sale? If the responsibility was not transferred does it mean it is still on Gibson and they should now pay Bandlab so that they can meet their obligation? Besides, the legal aspects may well be irrelevant considering that it may be quite expensive compared to the possible payback. Are you friggin serious? So what you're telling us is that if the motorcycle manufacturer goes out of business and later I come along and buy all their now unused tooling and equipment, move it into my building, hire some of the old employees because they already know what they're doing and start manufacturing new and improved motorcycles that I'm on the hook for the old company's warranty and recalls. That's exactly what I mean when I talk about logic being lost.... 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSteven Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 (edited) Here's my contribution to this thread of rampant unsubstantiated speculation... On 6/8/2023 at 9:11 AM, aidan o driscoll said: This then asks the Q why are they persisiting with windows only SONAR? Maybe its to have a solid well tested DAW available while eventually developing NEXT to the point that SONAR will get dropped? per Next page: https://www.cakewalk.com/next/ (highlighting mine) Quote Easily turn your ideas into songs Make your brilliant song ideas a reality with next-generation music creation tools designed to fuel creativity and streamline your workflow. Easily & Streamline to my thinking imply a simplified UI/program or at least a different one. Makes me wonder if Next will be the rebirthing of Project5. Edited June 9, 2023 by TheSteven 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byron Dickens Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 4 hours ago, Paul P said: It might be that if you're going to have to pay for your daw, might as well look at the other ones which, you have to admit, have bigger reputations than Cakewalk. And do some things better as well. Maybe its because my sense of self worth isn't dependent upon what other people think but I couldn't give a f**k less about the "reputation" of a tool that does what I need it to do. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 Could people stop trying to compare the software industry to real life scenarios? People do that all of the time with video games. No an assassin or solder wouldn't do that in reality. Comparing software to toasters, vehicles, pets, but it makes great DAW drama. Meanwhile I'm waiting for the paranoia to happen again at Image Line for the users to fear no more free upgrades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSteven Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 (edited) Regarding Gibson's LifeTime license... If Bandlab is even concerned about this issue (and they very well might not be) they could get in front of it by offering 'Lifetime' users a free 6 month or year subscription to the new Sonar. Kind of a hey "while we are not responsible or liable for the dishonest ridiculous cash grab maneuvers of another company - we acknowledge your frustration and without admitting or assuming liability we'll throw you this bone." Edited June 9, 2023 by TheSteven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User 905133 Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 14 minutes ago, InstrEd said: Yellow or White Popcorn? Asking as maybe we should split a 50lb bag ? DAMN!!!! Now I am starting to get cravings for white popcorn doused with powdered cheese-flavored product. Of course, I don't need the NaCL plus the shell fragments always get caught under my gums causing irritation issues. ? Fortunately I have some small yellow corn tortillas I can toast and have with salsa and cheese! ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSteven Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 4 minutes ago, TheSteven said: Regarding Gibson's LifeTime license... If Bandlab is even concerned about this issue (and they very well might not be) they could get in front of it by offering 'Lifetime' users a free 6 month or year subscription to the new Sonar. Kind of a hey "while we are not responsible or liable for the dishonest ridiculous cash grab maneuvers of another company - we acknowledge your frustration and without admitting or assuming liability we'll throw you this bone.' They could also add the clause:This offer is limited to former LifeTime license holders on the condition that they shut the **** up and stop whining!'' 1 4 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSteven Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 1 minute ago, User 905133 said: DAMN!!!! Now I am starting to get cravings for white popcorn doused with powdered cheese-flavored product. Of course, I don't need the NaCL plus the shell fragments always get caught under my gums causing irritation issues. ? Fortunately I have some small yellow corn tortillas I can toast and have with salsa and cheese! ? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcL Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 Ooooooohhhhh, please help me I have the Gibson syndrome! Frankly, that had been really a shock and I was very confused at that time. I also had something similar some years before when my 8-track recorder was beyond repair and I lost some recordings. And now with the latest news I feel something like that again! It eats up a lot of energy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PavlovsCat Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Eusebio Rufian-Zilbermann said: There are many important details here - Gibson ceased active development and production of Cakewalk branded products in order to focus on their Philips brand (side note: I have vague recollections of a person remaining like a solitary hero and "keeping some lights on", although it's probably not relevant for this discussion) - Is this the same as "the company being dissolved"? In your analogy I think this would be more like the bike seller deciding that he doesn't care anymore about the Honda bike that he sold you anymore and he is going to focus on Harleys instead, not a good reason for your not getting maintenance anymore . Was Cakewalk even an independent company at this point or was it a division of Gibson? Another detail is whether the "lifetime updates" refer to the lifetime of the company or the product. The Cakewalk acquisition included not only the source code but also the goodwill (branding and name recognition), are the promises "attached" to the goodwill and carried over? In any case, when I say I agree that the promise should be honored, that's simply my opinion on what should be the "morally right end result". There are others in this forum who are lawyers so I'll defer to them, if we even have enough info. There are probably lots of details that need to be determined first - do the contracts between Gibson and Bandlab have any clauses that impact these obligations? did Gibson fail to properly disclose information at the time of the sale? If the responsibility was not transferred does it mean it is still on Gibson and they should now pay Bandlab so that they can meet their obligation? Besides, the legal aspects may well be irrelevant considering that it may be quite expensive compared to the possible payback. In 2017, Gibson, which had purchased Cakewalk Inc in 2013, announced it was closing down Cakewalk Inc. Of course, they would have loved to sell the operational Cakewalk Inc for a good price, but were unsuccessful. In 2018, Gibson sold the intellectual property (the rights to software code, trademarks, website domain, etc.) of Cakewalk Inc and some assets to Bandlab. Gibson did not sell Cakewalk Inc. to Bandlab, just some of the assets of the company called Cakewalk Inc. that Gibson dissolved. Also keep in mind that Gibson declared chapter 11 bankruptcy that year, they were in a terrible state financially. So legally, Bandlab wasn't inheriting the contractual obligations of Cakewalk Inc., they were buying the company's intellectual property and some assets, not continuing the corporation's operations. Basically, it was a fire sale and Gibson was selling Cakewalk for its parts, the most valuable of which, beyond physical property, was its intellectual property (i.e. trademarks, software/code, website domain, etc). Now here's another aspect of this worth considering, IMO. If Bandlab didn't purchase trademarks like Cakewalk and Sonar and the rights to the website domain, and instead only purchased the rights to the software/code, they might have just taken some of that code and created a new DAW and let's say that they called it DAWlab. If they did that then I bet it wouldn't result in people who spent $199 USD with Cakewalk Inc in 2016 on Sonar updates to feel that Bandlab owes them free product for the rest of their lives. Agree or disagree? Legally, Bandlab was not purchasing an operating business and inheriting their contractual obligations. They were purchasing SOME of the assets of a corporation that ceased operations the year prior and was, in effect, sold for parts by Gibson. One of the people who weighed in is a lawyer who acknowledged that a few pages back. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm a former Fortune 500 business strategist (director) who used to assess mergers, acquisitions and purchases of corporate assets and a former business writer -- so I have some degree of knowledge on this area. I have NDAs, but I'll share that one of the companies I once explored purchasing was Intuit. But there has already been one lawyer who weighed in a couple of pages back. He acknowledged that there's no legal obligation for Bandlab in this matter, but he feels that because Bandlab bought some of Cakewalk Inc's assets, they still have a moral responsibility to provide free software to those who spent $199 with the since dissolved Cakewalk Inc. back in 2016. I think it's very clear cut that Bandlab does not have an ethical responsibility to fulfill contracts made by Cakewalk Inc owned by Gibson and believe that any resentment towards Bandlab over that is misplaced and not ethically valid. I'm not saying anyone's resentment is invalid. I'm saying that Bandlab is the wrong party to blame. If you're going to blame anyone, it would be more logical to blame the former Cakewalk managers who created and approved that offer. Gibson owned Cakewalk Inc, so I suppose you can choose to be angry with them that they didn't make a success of Cakewalk Inc. Some here have stated they blame Cakewalk Inc or Gibson for doing a lifetime deal when they knew they would be closing their doors soon, but I don't think those assumptions are necessarily correct. Cakewalk managers very likely didn't have certainty that Gibson was going to shut down operations and were likely desperate to see that not happen, as they'd be out of their jobs. Most parent companies aren't going to share that info widely with a company they own. A more likely scenario is that the Cakewalk managers that came up with the $199 lifetime deal were thinking it would quickly infuse cash into the business that might persuade Gibson to keep it operational. It's entirely possible that Gibson didn't get involved in such promotions and wasn't part of the approval process for that offer. But,I don't know anyone from Gibson, the former Cakewalk Inc or even Bandlab, so I'm just basing that on basic business knowledge and experience. Edited June 9, 2023 by PavlovsCat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antler Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 43 minutes ago, kitekrazy said: People do that all of the time with video games. No an assassin or solder wouldn't do that in reality. Wait... Are you telling me that no soldier could actually carry out what happens in the DOOM series of games? This is worse than learning about the Easter bunny... 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSteven Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 2 minutes ago, antler said: Wait... Are you telling me that no soldier could actually carry out what happens in the DOOM series of games? The difference is between what is possible and what is plausible. Possible maybe, plausible no. If by Easter your referring to the Easter Bunny... that's a national tragedy. Thousands of poor rabbits going into diabetic shock and comas as children force feed them sugary treats so that they could lay better eggs. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PavlovsCat Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 51 minutes ago, TheSteven said: They could also add the clause:This offer is limited to former LifeTime license holders on the condition that they shut the **** up and stop whining!'' But do you honestly think that even then those folks could abide by that agreement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Nicholls Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 1 hour ago, TheSteven said: If Bandlab is even concerned about this issue (and they very well might not be) they could get in front of it by offering 'Lifetime' users a free 6 month or year subscription to the new Sonar. I, for one, have enjoyed the FIVE YEARS of "free subscription" to the Cakewalk DAW that Bandlab actually gave us. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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