BandLab Technologies reveals new brand vision for Cakewalk

[dubdisciple]

6 minutes ago, Christian Jones said:

That'd be the legal side of it. But one could argue that there was still a moral obligation there when Meng slammed that home when he himself said:

"Our steadfast goal is that former SONAR owners (of all versions) will not need to spend any money to cross-over/cross-grade to the future flagship product"

He was obviously overly optimistic there, and of course no expressed promise was made there, but he said what he said and one could argue that BandLab, in soon charging for their future flagship, is now not standing by their word, or at least the "steadfast goal" they set for themselves and us. 

I don't feel like BandLab owes me for the Lifetime Updates I bought. For the rec I'm not so much pissed at the lost money as I am at being taken by Gibson's final Cakewalk grift - something Gibson pulled knowing that ultimately they wouldn't be honoring it for long. 

And with Meng coming in and applying sav to that burn w/ that "steadfast goal".. we can understand how one could be pissed at BandLab right now. I'm not. I got way worse s#!t going down in my life to care. 

But probably no one should buy (into) anymore 'Lifetime' or 'Steadfast Goal' bs, and that is what that is. 

I think everyone should be rightfully pissed at gibson since they knowingly took that lifetime fee while knowing they were folding

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

1 minute ago, dubdisciple said:

I think everyone should be rightfully pissed at gibson since they knowingly took that lifetime fee while knowing they were folding

Wasn't Gibson the same company that quite aggressively made a video telling people to let their logos visible in places where their instruments are used completely ignoring the fact they have to pay to have their brand and logo visible?

[Christian Jones]

25 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said:

But if folks are going to rant about perceived injustices when it's obvious that they weren't wronged by Bandlab, my sense of fairness/ethics does compel me to respond. That's all. I wish you and everyone else nothing but happiness, no ill will. And I hope that you will consider what me and others have written and be able to move on. 

Lol, not for nothing but in all fairness brother it's kind of funny to see you out here talking about 'perceived injustices' and whether or not someone was wronged and telling people to "move on" after that whole drawn out public showdown between you and the Fluffy Audio guy on VI Control as well as here, over what most felt was nothing.. Lol I'm just busting your b@11s but you gotta see the irony, or whatever it is, there lol

[Brian Walton]

3 hours ago, Byron Dickens said:

Quite possibly this is a move to allow them to bundle premium third party plugins like people have been begging for.

I must have missed it, haven't seen anyone really asking for more included plugins at this point.  We all have way too many already.  I had lifetime updates (which gave me all the stuff bandlab has and free users don't get) and basically don't use any of the stock stuff anymore other than XLN drums which they would be foolish to try to include again by paying XLN premiums 

[PavlovsCat]

On 6/7/2023 at 4:07 PM, Christian Jones said:

Lol, not for nothing but in all fairness brother it's kind of funny to see you out here talking about 'perceived injustices' and whether or not someone was wronged and telling people to "move on" after that whole drawn out public showdown between you and the Fluffy Audio guy on VI Control as well as here, over what most felt was nothing.. Lol I'm just busting your b@11s but you gotta see the irony, or whatever it is, there lol

I wouldn't consider my publicly sharing my negative experience of having no customer support from Fluffy Audio after several support requests were ignored for nearly a year and the developer lashing out at me privately and publicly for sharing that story and calling me a liar and making various defamatory statements is very comparable to someone feeling in 2023 that $199 they spent in 2016 with a company that went out of business in 2017 should be honored in perpetuity by the company that merely purchased the defunct company's intellectual capital (software and website) and has given away the software free for 5 years since purchasing those assets. (FTR, your spin is inaccurate, but that's a rabbit hole I don't want to follow you into.)

Bandlab didn't fail to provide customer support and Meng didn't lash out and post defamatory statements at his customers, so I think you're stretching the boundaries of logic and civility with your cheap shot comparisons between you complaining about you spending $199 in 2016 with a company dissolved in 2017 and holding the company that merely bought some of its assets as comparable to a developer making defamatory public attacks on a customer. You feel a company that you've never made a purchase from owes you something simply because you made a purchase from a company that bought they only purchased the assets of from the parent company.  You perceive that you were wronged by Bandlab even though they didn't purchase Cakewalk Inc, even though they've never made a cent of revenue from you and gave you free product,  updates and support  for the last 5 years. Somehow you think that's an honest and logical apples to apples comparison with my experience with Fluffy Audio?  Seriously?  

I'm not denying anyone's right to feel disappointment over $199 USD spent in 2016 with a company that went under in 2017 that was dissolved and some assets were purchased by Bandlab, however. It seems appropriate to move on after that much time and considering actual facts over illogical emotions -- but that's just my opinion. In any case, Bandlab isn't that company you spent $199 in 2016 with, it didn't buy that company and it doesn't have a legal or moral obligation to fulfill any expectations that were set by that company, which Gibson owned and dissolved in 2017  and sold some of its assets to Bandlab in 2018. Just because Bandlab purchased  the intellectual property and some other assets in a fire sale a year after Cakewalk Inc went out of business doesn't mean you can resurrect some $199 purchase you made with a defunct corporation and hold the purchaser of some of Cakewalk's assets to your agreement with Cakewalk Inc. That is not a logical business case or ethics argument no matter how many times you or anyone else repeats it and convinces themselves it is. 

To dubdisciple's  above point,  it would make a lot more sense to direct that resentment at Gibson than Bandlab. We've had free updates for the last 5 years courtesy of Bandlab. Bandlab wasn't continuing the business operation of Cakewalk Inc.  I could understand if you're disappointed in Cakewalk Inc management or Gibson for that $199 you spent in 2016, but I don't think it's reasonable to blame the company that merely bought intellectual property of Cakewalk Inc after Gibson dissolved the company. If Fluffy Audio goes out of business this year and another company buys the rights to sell their sample libraries and I blame that company for things Fluffy Audio's owner said and did seven years prior, I think it's fair for you to call me out for not moving on at that point. 

Edited June 9, 2023 by PavlovsCat

[Christian Jones]

?

[Monomox]

On 6/6/2023 at 9:11 AM, BTP said:

Has there ever been a free product that has been successfully turned into a paid product before?

Water

[paulo]

8 minutes ago, Monomox said:

Water

Coming soon....... Fresh Air.

[PavlovsCat]

17 minutes ago, Monomox said:

Water

This wins best post of they day. 

[bitflipper]

56 minutes ago, Brian Walton said:

I must have missed it, haven't seen anyone really asking for more included plugins at this point.

Yeh, you just missed it. There have been many pleas, not for new plugins, but for the return of old favorites. Some that come to mind from recent posts (as recent as last month) are CA2A, Dimension Pro, Adaptive Limiter, Z3ta and LP-64. Most of us old-timers still have them, but the user base has expanded greatly since the demise of classic Sonar.

Some of the old bundled plugins were licensed from third parties (e.g. PerfectSpace, Pantheon, Breverb). Couldn't sustain that with a free DAW. Some of the old favorites were made by now-defunct companies (e.g. VC-64), so they're out. However, Cakewalk actually owned the code for some of them, or they were developed in-house. Those are the ones most likely to return, now that Cakewalk's hiring. Cakewalk, I believe, outright owns the Sonitus suite (having bought Ultrafunc, its developer). It'd be nice to see those great plugins spiffed up with bigger UIs and a few bugs ironed out.

Oddly, no one has asked for Guitar Rig LE. (C'mon, it wasn't that bad!)

A legitimate argument can be made that nobody really needs those, given the cornucopia of free and cheap plugins out in the world today. But they were a good value for someone just getting started.

[Christian Jones]

1 hour ago, PavlovsCat said:

I wouldn't consider my publicly sharing my experience of having no customer support from Fluffy Audio resulting in the owner lashing out at me in social media and calling me defamatory names comparable to be people complaining that the life time deal made by a defunct company should be honored by the company that purchased that defunct company's intellectual capital. 

Bandlab didn't not provide support or lash out at customers who shared a bad experience and called them names. I get that you're saying that I have very negative feelings towards Fluffy Audio, but that's actually based on specific actions by Fluffy Audio, not blaming a company for something that happened with another company that they purchased assets from after it was dissolved.

Point is brother you brought the Fluffy Audio guy out to have a public showdown w/ you on two separate forums over something trivial in the grand scheme, but you drew it out far beyond the scope of ridiculousness, posting "interminable screeds" (as one put it) of having been so wronged, to the point where if a reader didn't know any better they'd think your house burned down, and virtually everyone who commented on that thread told you as much. I'm saying that you commenting now re Bandlab on how people are 'ranting' and should 'move on' comes off as rich, if not hypocritical, condescending and just generally lacking humility. Thanks for editing down this post of yours I'm responding to, as it was initially needlessly long and rehashy. 

Lol aight, I'll agree to move on from this though and won't comment further on what I wrote beyond this post. That high horse deal of yours just gets old is all brother. I mean that respectfully too, not attacking you. 

 

I'll buy the new Cakewalk as it's the only daw I really care about. Just do us a solid BandLab and don't charge half a grand. 

[PavlovsCat]

On 6/7/2023 at 5:49 PM, Christian Jones said:

Point is brother you brought the Fluffy Audio guy out to have a public showdown w/ you on two separate forums over something trivial in the grand scheme, but you drew it out far beyond the scope of ridiculousness, posting "interminable screeds" (as one put it) of having been so wronged, to the point where if a reader didn't know any better they'd think your house burned down, and virtually everyone who commented on that thread told you as much. I'm saying that you commenting now re Bandlab on how people are 'ranting' and should 'move on' comes off as rich, if not hypocritical, condescending and just generally lacking humility. Thanks for editing down this post of yours I'm responding to, as it was initially needlessly long and rehashy. 

Lol aight, I'll agree to move on from this though and won't comment further on what I wrote beyond this post. That high horse deal of yours just gets old is all brother. I mean that respectfully too, not attacking you. 

 

I'll buy the new Cakewalk as it's the only daw I really care about. Just do us a solid BandLab and don't charge half a grand. 

Okay, you've made multiple very passive-aggressive posts directed at me. This thread is about Bandlab and your bringing up past threads is the epitome of "rehashy." You're spinning the Fluffy Audio story a bit.  I invited the Fluffy dev to the forum after I made the thread proposing we could show a friendly resolution by Fluffy. Instead, the guy used it as an opportunity to call me names and lie about what occurred. But your using this thread to make personal attacks and then write a series of insults and follow it up with either a sarcastic I'm not "not attacking you." (or maybe you just lack self-awareness?)  -- come on, these are among the insults you threw at me in the above post:    

"that high horse of yours gets old"
"lacking humility,"
"hypocritical"
"Thanks for editing down this post of yours I'm responding to, as it was initially needlessly long and rehashy."

I get that you didn't like my post calling the anger or expectations directed at Bandlab to fufill the 2016 $199 USD update deal of a company that it didn't buy that went out of business in 2017 simply isn't reasonable and it's time to move on, but the fact is, it just isn't reasonable and I think you're taking the venom out on me a bit too far for my expressing that.  I'm not denying anyone's right to be disappointed with Cakewalk Inc or Gibson. I'm merely saying, Cakewalk Inc went out of business a long time ago. That deal happened a long time ago and Bandlab did not buy and operate Cakewalk. They bought their intellectual property and some assets. Gibson shut down Cakewalk in 2017. The company Cakewalk has not existed after that.  Bandlab didn't do a merger or acquisition. They bought some assets from a company that no longer existed. As I've stated numerous times, I can understand those who are upset with Gibson. I'm not saying I blame Gibson myself, but I understand how some people can blame them. I can understand why some folks could blame Cakewalk's management or Gibson, Although I don't think it's certain that the lifetime deal you bought was necessarily approved by Gibson managers. It could be that the Cakewalk managers that came up with the idea hoped it could have kept the company afloat and saved their jobs and Gibson had nothing to do with the offer. We don't have enough knowledge to validate the conspiracy theory some here have floated that Gibson managers knew that Cakewalk Inc was going to be dissolved and came up with the lifetime deal to grab as much cash as they could. I don't see any evidence that could prove that conspiracy theory true. However, Gibson did own Cakewalk when they went under, so that makes a lot more sense than holding Bandlab accountable for the lifetime deal when Bandlab had nothing to do with it and only purchased the intellectual property and some assets of the  corporation after it ceased operation. 

Why did I point that I think people expecting Bandlab to fulfill a deal made several years ago by the Gibson owned Cakewalk Inc isn't reasonable, because of my sense of fairness and business knowledge. I think that some people making that leap might not be aware that Cakewalk Inc was actually no longer operating and its parts sold by the time Bandlab made its purchase.  Cakewalk Inc. was dissolved by Gibson in November 2017. That was the end of all of the obligations of the company to its customers, it ceased to exist on that month and hasn't existed since then. Bandlab never purchased the operating company called Cakewalk Inc. It only purchased Cakewalk, Inc.’s intellectual property and some of its assets. Consequently, Bandlab never took on Cakewalk's responsibilities for any agreements or contracts, those were dead by the time Bandlab purchased the intellectual property and assets from Gibson. So, if one were to say owed them anything from the Cakewalk, Inc days, it certainly wouldn't be Bandlab. It would be Gibson. I would hope that armed with that knowledge that most reasonable people would set their expectations with Bandlab accordingly. I'd also propose that a lot of folks who presently feel Bandlab should honor the lifetime deal made by Cakewalk Inc should consider this: 

If  Bandlab merely used some of the Cakewalk intellectual property it bought from Gibson -- say the software/code and some patents (I don't even know what or how many patents Cakewalk Inc held) that they used for the DAW to create a new DAW and called it DAWLab  and made no references to Cakewalk or any of the Cakewalk Inc trademarks,  I think the folks currently feel Bandlab has an obligation to fufill Cakewalk's lifetime deal they bought, would not feel that way. Because they would more clearly realize that Cakewalk Inc is gone. That it was dissolved and Bandlab is an entirely different company that just bought some of the Cakwalk Inc's assets.  However, as Bandlab uses the Cakewalk trademark for their flagship product -- and will soon be using the Sonar trademark-- and they also  use the Cakewalk.com domain, I think it's much more difficult for some folks to see the delineation between Bandlab and Cakewalk Inc, especially for those who aren't businesspeople who understand the various relevant  concepts such as mergers, acquisitions, liquidations, etc. -- situations where a company purchases the intellectual capital of a dissolved corporation vs. the acquisition of an operating corporation -- and that understanding or, conversely, a lack of understanding of these matters, greatly informs one's expectations. 

Also, on a smaller note, if you're going to make personal attacks at forum members because you think they're high and mighty, arrogant and on a high horse, you might make a better case by refraining from using archaic 1800s high society phrases like "interminable screeds" in your take down. I'm just saying. Also, the brother thing right after you make an insult gets old really fast. You can leave that technique out next time. 

Edited June 9, 2023 by PavlovsCat

[dubdisciple]

2 hours ago, Bruno de Souza Lino said:

Wasn't Gibson the same company that quite aggressively made a video telling people to let their logos visible in places where their instruments are used completely ignoring the fact they have to pay to have their brand and logo visible?

Sounds like something they would do. Cakewalk is not the first company they gutted 

[Yan Filiatrault]

Already installed! (It’s still Cakewalk Sonar, right?)

[kitekrazy]

4 minutes ago, dubdisciple said:

Sounds like something they would do. Cakewalk is not the first company they gutted 

When I upgraded to Ggiastudio 4, a month later Tascam decided to drop it.  I called them Thescam. Garritan bought the code and went nowhere.

When Sony became Magix to me it's annual vaporware. 

[Brian Walton]

48 minutes ago, bitflipper said:

Yeh, you just missed it. There have been many pleas, not for new plugins, but for the return of old favorites. Some that come to mind from recent posts (as recent as last month) are CA2A, Dimension Pro, Adaptive Limiter, Z3ta and LP-64. Most of us old-timers still have them, but the user base has expanded greatly since the demise of classic Sonar.

Some of the old bundled plugins were licensed from third parties (e.g. PerfectSpace, Pantheon, Breverb). Couldn't sustain that with a free DAW. Some of the old favorites were made by now-defunct companies (e.g. VC-64), so they're out. However, Cakewalk actually owned the code for some of them, or they were developed in-house. Those are the ones most likely to return, now that Cakewalk's hiring. Cakewalk, I believe, outright owns the Sonitus suite (having bought Ultrafunc, its developer). It'd be nice to see those great plugins spiffed up with bigger UIs and a few bugs ironed out.

Oddly, no one has asked for Guitar Rig LE. (C'mon, it wasn't that bad!)

A legitimate argument can be made that nobody really needs those, given the cornucopia of free and cheap plugins out in the world today. But they were a good value for someone just getting started.

Ahh yes, as an owner of all those - I'd only recommend them if they were included in a free DAW.  None are worth paying for given other options on the market.

Even the newest of the bunch were dated out of the gate due to a lack of resizable UI though otherwise look nice visually on the old architecture.  (Adaptive Limiter and LP-64).  

Even the 3rd party stuff is dated now where it used to feel like a real bonus (Breverb and the cut down Rmatrix).  it isn't' that any of these things are bad, but you having listed a plugin I put on a project in 4 years.

The pandemic dramatically changed the average users' collection as well as the market.

I'll say it again if they were valuable and sought after they could have gone the "the daw is free" but you can buy our plugins route - which would in theory attract both Cakewalk users and all other DAWs.  

 

Maybe the biggest question here is will our current custom themes import into this new high rez version?  If not, I won't be happy.  ?

[Anxiousmofo]

9 hours ago, Byron Dickens said:

So why are you here?

If you haven't noticed, a whole lot of us on  this thread used to be primarily Sonar users but have switched to other platforms since the crud thud. 

Now I'm just here for the deals and downtalk, I guess. 

[craigb]

2 hours ago, Monomox said:

Water

 

1 hour ago, paulo said:

Coming soon....... Fresh Air.

Highly doubtful! ?

[craigb]

I hear that Bandlab has settled on what they feel is the MOST profitable approach:  Having Larry sell Cakewalk as a plugin.  ???

[GTsongwriter]

On 6/6/2023 at 11:04 AM, cclarry said:

I hate to say it...and I LOVE Sonar....but at this point, if they start charging me after it being free for so long, I'll use something else.

Cough cough... Reaper..

I still own Sonar Producer 8.5.3.  I have BandLab Cakewalk, but haven't used it in a long while.  I've been mainly using Reaper since you can program scripts for it and the customization is off the charts. Reaper is also cheap ($60) for those of us that is doing this just for fun.  Sometimes I'll use Reaper as a rewire plugin into Sonar Producer so I can have access to VST3 in Sonar.