BandLab Technologies reveals new brand vision for Cakewalk

[dubdisciple]

27 minutes ago, Eusebio Rufian-Zilbermann said:

Nowadays most DAWs come with a bundle of plugins and tools. I have purchased a few DAWs just for the included plugins, Reason is probably the best example of a product that people may want to buy for what it includes, no matter if Reason is their primary DAW or not.

I've heard newcomers sometimes regretting not having purchased Sonar when it was available, because of the bundled items that were not included in CbB (not just 3rd party but CW plugins like Dimension Pro, Rapture, etc). When Sonar gets resurrected as a paid product, maybe that will open up the doors for including a nice bundle of plugins again and e.g., reviving and revamping the CW plugins that have been languishing in limbo.

Speculation: Perhaps that would be an easier transition from free to paid, making it freemium where the bare DAW is free, but not the better versions with bundled products

oh, and I agree with the principle that lifetime subscribers to Sonar should not have to pay a new subscription (or a fixed price)

Please help me to understand why you think Bandlab should pay for Gibson's mistake? 

[aidan o driscoll]

6 hours ago, bluzdog said:

FYI: At the bottom of the new website there is a link to the Sonar Legacy website. Under support you can login in to your old account and access your legacy products.

You could always acess the download for  Cakewalk Command centre app

https://legacy.cakewalk.com/Command-Center

Download, install and login, all software there to install from that on your system

Edited June 7, 2023 by aidan o driscoll

[bluzdog]

This thread and the one upstairs is like "Nextdoor" on steroids. People bitching about hypotheticals and other people bitching about the first bitchers. ?

[X-53mph]

27 minutes ago, bluzdog said:

This thread and the one upstairs is like "Nextdoor" on steroids. People bitching about hypotheticals and other people bitching about the first bitchers. ?

...and then those bitchin about the bitchers bitchin...

...anyone for a brew?

Edited June 7, 2023 by Philip G Hunt

[TheSteven]

5 minutes ago, Philip G Hunt said:

...and then those bitchin about the bitchers bitchin...

...anyone for a brew?

Bitches Brew?
I haven't listened to that in quite a while... might an appropriate time to do so once again.
 

Edited June 7, 2023 by TheSteven

[kitekrazy1]

1 hour ago, Byron Dickens said:

Quite possibly this is a move to allow them to bundle premium third party plugins like people have been begging for.

They use to do that to get you to buy Sonar upgrades.

[Eusebio Rufian-Zilbermann]

1 hour ago, Byron Dickens said:

And why is that?

1 hour ago, dubdisciple said:

Please help me to understand why you think Bandlab should pay for Gibson's mistake? 

Because when you acquire something that has liabilities/debt attached to it you normally have the obligation to meet those liabilities

Note: in bankruptcy proceedings a judge may discharge some of that liability and, depending on the situation, determine if the party losing their rights should get some compensation but I don't think that happened in this case

Edited June 7, 2023 by Eusebio Rufian-Zilbermann

[Magic Russ]

1 hour ago, bluzdog said:

This thread and the one upstairs is like "Nextdoor" on steroids. People bitching about hypotheticals and other people bitching about the first bitchers. ?

Thank you for reminding me why I don't spend time on Nextdoor.

 

[paulo]

1 hour ago, bluzdog said:

This thread and the one upstairs is like "Nextdoor" on steroids. People bitching about hypotheticals and other people bitching about the first bitchers. ?

Coming to a thread near you soon.......PbB. (Popcorn by Bandlab)

[kitekrazy1]

1 hour ago, Eusebio Rufian-Zilbermann said:

Nowadays most DAWs come with a bundle of plugins and tools. I have purchased a few DAWs just for the included plugins, Reason is probably the best example of a product that people may want to buy for what it includes, no matter if Reason is their primary DAW or not.

I've heard newcomers sometimes regretting not having purchased Sonar when it was available, because of the bundled items that were not included in CbB (not just 3rd party but CW plugins like Dimension Pro, Rapture, etc). When Sonar gets resurrected as a paid product, maybe that will open up the doors for including a nice bundle of plugins again and e.g., reviving and revamping the CW plugins that have been languishing in limbo.

Speculation: Perhaps that would be an easier transition from free to paid, making it freemium where the bare DAW is free, but not the better versions with bundled products

oh, and I agree with the principle that lifetime subscribers to Sonar should not have to pay a new subscription (or a fixed price)

 They are proprietary and can only be used with their plugin, not to mention their sampled REs have to exist on the OS drive.  There are far too many alternatives to Reason instruments.   Their overall popularity has diminished since Reason 10.

Everyone trying the Adobe model but many have moved on to alternatives.

I like what Image Line and Reaper do - imrprove their DAWs.    With so much 3rd party instrument addons I'm no longer enticed by those that come with DAWs.  At the same time many effects in a DAW are underrated. 

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by kitekrazy

[dubdisciple]

22 minutes ago, Eusebio Rufian-Zilbermann said:

Because when you acquire something that has liabilities/debt attached to it you normally have the obligation to meet those liabilities

Note: in bankruptcy proceedings a judge may discharge some of that liability and, depending on the situation, determine if the party losing their rights should get some compensation but I don't think that happened in this case

If I'm not mistaken, they acquired cakewalk after it had folded, rather than while it was active. It was dead and bandlab revived rather than took it over. I think that is a huge difference in expectations for honoring previous agreements

[dubdisciple]

I double checked. Bandlab didn't acquire rights to cakewalk until months after they were dead. It was a resurrection rather than an acquisition that continued business.

[Magic Russ]

19 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

Everyone trying the Adobe model but many have moved on to alternatives.

Like I said in the upstairs thread, I don't think anyone in the DAW world can get away with that.   Those who have tried have been shown the errors of their ways.  I would be shocked to see that happen.

Edited June 7, 2023 by Magic Russ

[Byron Dickens]

27 minutes ago, Eusebio Rufian-Zilbermann said:

Because when you acquire something that has liabilities/debt attached to it you normally have the obligation to meet those liabilities

Note: in bankruptcy proceedings a judge may discharge some of that liability and, depending on the situation, determine if the party losing their rights should get some compensation but I don't think that happened in this case

BandLab did not buy the Cakewalk company. As a company,  Cakewalk had been closed for months and BandLab bought the intellectual property from Gibson. There's a big difference and I don't know why you can't understand that.

[azslow3]

1 hour ago, Paul P said:

Larry !    ....uh...  I mean deals !

Some people probably forget (or don't know) that THIS board is visited by many people which was never using (and may be will never use) Cakewalk/Sonar/CbB/Next/Previous/etc. ?

[TheSteven]

17 minutes ago, azslow3 said:

Some people probably forget (or don't know) that THIS board is visited by many people which was never using (and may be will never use) Cakewalk/Sonar/CbB/Next/Previous/etc. ?

And in addition to hosting a 'deals' forum Bandlab graciously lets people discuss and promote other DAWs on its forums unlike most of the boards run by companies promoting those other DAWs.
(not saying that you have overlooked that, just pointing it out because sometimes people overlook that generosity)

[PavlovsCat]

1 hour ago, Eusebio Rufian-Zilbermann said:

Because when you acquire something that has liabilities/debt attached to it you normally have the obligation to meet those liabilities

Note: in bankruptcy proceedings a judge may discharge some of that liability and, depending on the situation, determine if the party losing their rights should get some compensation but I don't think that happened in this case

Bandlab merely purchased the intellectual property of the dissolved company. 

To throw my hat in the ring with analogies, it's like buying a bike from a man who tells you, "I will give you free maintenance for your bike for the remainder of my life!" However, he ends up dying six months later and his son sells all of his bike maintenance tools to a neighbor. So you track down the late seller's neighbor and angrily demand that he honor the agreement of the now deceased seller of the bike. 

FTR, I originally was amused by the irony of someone on, I think, page 1, who complained about other people complaining. But by page 7, I kinda started agreeing with him when people came on to scream into the abyss who feel a sense of moral outrage (mis) directed at a company that merely bought the assets of a company that no longer exists that made a deal with them that didn't turn out as they hoped. Lifetime deals with software companies commonly entail a good deal of risk. When Cakewalk offered that deal, it was well known that the company was not in good financial shape and could go under. That's simply the risk one takes with those deals. But holding the anger and sense of entitlement against the company that merely bought the intellectual property of the defunct company is very misplaced. I get that you are disappointed over something that happened more than a decade ago, but it's old history. If seeing the name Cakewalk or Sonar triggers such terrible memories that can't be resolved after more than half a decade, I honestly think folks are better off just avoiding anything to do with the brand.  But I also think that you're holding a grudge against the wrong party. Bandlab gave us all a product we once paid handsomely for at no cost for 5 years and -- OH THE HORROR!!!! -- now they want to charge us money for that product.

I think reasonable people can agree that it is completely fair for Bandlab to expect consumers to pay to use their software.  And if you don't agree, don't pay the price. That's your choice. I faithfully updated every version of top of the line Cakewalk products for every release since the original company's earliest years  (I bought Project 5 and liked it and they abandoned that product pretty early; but I wasn't outraged and didbnn't feel it was some great injustice, I realize that it's just the realities of operating a business). I don't think Bandlab owes me anything. If they offer the new version of Sonar at what I feel is a fair price, I'll pay it. I like the company and I think there is a value in using a software product I know very well that I've built workflows around.  But if folks are going to rant about perceived injustices when it's obvious that they weren't wronged by Bandlab, my sense of fairness/ethics does compel me to respond. That's all. I wish you and everyone else nothing but happiness, no ill will. And I hope that you will consider what me and others have written and be able to move on. 

Edited June 7, 2023 by PavlovsCat

[antler]

5 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said:

To throw my hat in the ring with analogies, it's like buying a bike from a man who tells you, "I will give you free maintenance for your bike for the remainder of my life!" However, he ends up dying six months later and his son sells all of his bike maintenance tools to a neighbor. So you track down the late seller's neighbor and angrily demand that he honor the agreement of the now deceased seller of the bike. 

Nice analogy.

The (unrelated) lifetime deal that I once got confused over was for a circuit breaker. Back in the day where everything was corded, it was commonplace to need a power cord to plug lawnmowers into. I saw a power extension cord with built-in circuit breaker for sale once, sold as a lawnmower accessory; its description said it came with a lifetime guarantee. I'm still not overly sure to which party the lifetime refers to ?

[Christian Jones]

58 minutes ago, dubdisciple said:

If I'm not mistaken, they acquired cakewalk after it had folded, rather than while it was active. It was dead and bandlab revived rather than took it over. I think that is a huge difference in expectations for honoring previous agreements

That'd be the legal side of it. But one could argue that there was still a moral obligation there when Meng slammed that home when he himself said:

"Our steadfast goal is that former SONAR owners (of all versions) will not need to spend any money to cross-over/cross-grade to the future flagship product"

He was obviously overly optimistic there, and of course no expressed promise was made there, but he said what he said and one could argue that BandLab, in soon charging for their future flagship, is now not standing by their word, or at least the "steadfast goal" they set for themselves and us. 

I don't feel like BandLab owes me for the Lifetime Updates I bought. For the rec I'm not so much pissed at the lost money as I am at being taken by Gibson's final Cakewalk grift - something Gibson pulled knowing that ultimately they wouldn't be honoring it for long. 

And with Meng coming in and applying sav to that burn w/ that "steadfast goal".. we can understand how one could be pissed at BandLab right now. I'm not. I got way worse s#!t going down in my life to care. 

But probably no one should buy (into) anymore 'Lifetime' or 'Steadfast Goal' bs, and that is what that is. 

[PavlovsCat]

Wait, I have another analogy from my real life and it's funny -- largely at my expense. 

I called to audition with this fairly popular regional band that had gotten a fair amount of attention in the local press for being the next up and coming rock band out of Chicago (both of our major Chicago newspapers music reviewers echoed that sentiment, so I was pretty excited to get a chance to audition with the band) . I spoke with the lead singer. He told me that the original drummer of the band was quitting and they needed a new drummer and he wanted me to meet with the band, but told me not to discuss the drummer's leaving, because things were uncomfortable. So I saw the band at a very nice night club and thought they were really good. I was with my girlfriend at the time and I was praising the drummer so much she turned to me and jokingly said, "I can see that you have very strong feelings for him. I completely understand if you want to leave me for him. I won't stand in the way." So, I end up auditioning with the band a week later, was immediately asked to join and accepted. For maybe the next month, we did a lot of shows, and at maybe four of those shows, including one or two out of state, the former drummer would stand near the front of the stage giving me the finger with both hands and in between songs and would screen "You suck" at me in between songs. I actually responded by cracking up --  as much as it wasn't a pretty situation, it was so over the top bizarre, I did find it amusing on a certain level. But it was the fact that he did this at multiple shows over the course of the month and even traveled out of state to a show, going alone, drinking and standing near the stage just to give me the finger and yell, "You suck!" after paying cover charges of $10 or more that I started to have compassion that this was someone who was suffering. And the guy was so talented and wasting his time heckling me. I was less offended then I was sad for him. So I asked the lead singer back stage if the former drummer really quit or he actually the fired the guy (meaning, he been lying to me prior to that). 

I suppose I'm wired different than a lot of people, and despite that this guy was giving me the finger with both hands and shouting, "You suck!" I was confident enough that I didn't suck and this guy was just misdirecting his anger and disappointment at the wrong party. After all, I didn't know he was being fired, I thought I was replacing a drummer who decided to quit. I felt terrible that this guy was in such pain that he was paying to spend his Saturday nights at our shows to give me the finger and yell at me. If anything, he should have been upset at the lead singer. So, I did something unorthodox one night. In between sets, I walked over to him and told him to initiate a conversation. I was prepared for him to throw a punch at me. But he looked really surprised and a bit embarrassed when I walked up to him. I asked if I could talk to him and he said it was okay. I told him that I had no idea that he was fired from the band, that I thought he quit and told him how much I loved his drumming and how my girlfriend made fun of me for praising his drumming so much that she joked that she would understand if I left her for him. I think I bought him a beer after that, I remember that we made a toast to each other and laughed about what he did. He even told me he thought I was an excellent drummer and didn't mean it when he yelled that I suck. I told him not to worry about it, that it made for a great story and was kind of hilarious, but that he really should have been doing that to the lead singer.  It was a really nice exchange, and I can honestly say that I didn't hold any kind of grudge against him, I loved his drumming and sincerely liked him once we got to talk to each other. I also gave him a pep talk about what a talented drummer he was to encourage him. It really seemed to cheer him up and I felt that we really connected at that point. 

Anyhow, the point of my analogy? If there's any party that it might make sense to be upset with, it would be Gibson not Bandlab. But I would also keep in mind that Cakewalk was just desperately trying to stay afloat when they made that lifetime deal. I wouldn't make the leap that they were intentionally ripping people off. Their managers that came up with the lifetime deal might have believed that it could have generated enough sales to keep them afloat. 
 

Edited June 8, 2023 by PavlovsCat