Introducing Cakewalk Next and our new brand identity

[michaelhanson]

2 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

Not directed to anyone in this thread in general, but nobody here is crapping on anyone for asking questions - it's obvious stuff is still being worked out at Bandlab HQ that the Bakers can't talk about yet, so it's fair to speculate. But man, there's a lot of "the sky is falling" and general FUD in these threads, threats to go to another paid product and learn a new system if they make this one a paid product (WTF?), or just general misunderstandings. At the end of the day, nobody here is your mum - if the terms going forward don't work for you, people all have the choice to go wherever they please. But throwing toys out of the cot because of speculation is ridiculous. Let's see what's actually happening first, this isn't even day 1 yet.

Well, its obvious were you are directing it and if you read all 12 pages the crap pile is there.  I'm not making threats, I moved to multiple DAW's long ago.  Money is not the objection, I make a very healthy living; value is my question, were do I want to put my investment for the best long term out come.  

The fact that the "Bakers", a term many of us old times coined a long time ago, role out a similar message each time they change the business model is growing a little old however.  They have always dipped their toe in the water before releasing pricing terms.  The last subscription model went exactly the same way.  I preferred the subscription back then, by the way.  It fit my budget better at that stage in my life.  

 

[limpet]

I started a few years ago with Reaper, used it for a while, felt a bit guilty and decided to buy the personal use license which I think was about £40 at the time. Unfortunately I couldn`t really get to grips with it so I went looking for something a little simpler to use and came across Mixcraft. This was easier to use, and so more enjoyable and I paid about £70 for it. Every couple of years it was revamped into a new release which existing customers could get, if they so desired, at around a 50% discount, so all good there.

Unfortunately, Mixcraft started to get a bit crashy and I very nearly lost a lot of projects so I had a look around and came across Cakewalk. I tried it out and I have to admit when I opened it up it was pretty intimidating, but after a few hours playing with it, it was humming along nicely and I have used it ever since with no issues. Got to love that pro channel.

Obviously this free to use situation was too good to be true and could never realistically last, so this news is not unexpected.

The only question to be answered really is about the pricing.

For me, not a heavy user, if it`s a case of a one off payment in the region of £80 to £100 with new versions every couple of years at a 40 % discount to existing users, then I could go for that. If on the other hand we`re talking more like £200 or God forbid a subscription then that would be too rich for me and I would be compelled to give Reaper another try, or see if Mixcraft has become more stable, which would be no real hardship as I have already paid once so it wouldn`t  be to expensive to re-visit and upgrade a bit.

Time will tell of course, but I will keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best.

 

[MarianoGF]

28 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

Do you think they would be using the same graphics, names and even website for the last 5 years if they didn't have the rights? This would have ALL been part of the Intellectual Property.

No, I'm sure they have the rights (please). But I think that acquiring the brands Cakewalk and Sonar are more than to acquire just the intellectual property (the code).

[Rob Chang]

Can we please get Z3TA+ and Rapture back, or some other synth? One of the most glaring holes in CbBL currently is there's no quality synth included. TTS-1 is not what anyone would call a quality synthesizer due to how limited it is. I don't know why Z3TA+ and Rapture had to be taken away from CbBL in the first place. It's not like they're still being sold. 

I teach music production to a lot of hobbyists and I tell all my students to use Cakewalk because it's free, but when it comes to using synths in their tracks, TTS-1 is so primitive and meh that the students are just not impressed. Having them go find/download/install third-party synths adds more complication because often there are compatibility issues with those, including installation complications such as the VST not showing up in Cakewalk even if the directory is being scanned. Having a high quality included synth will make the DAW feel more complete and usable right out of the box. And these students will "graduate" to paid version of Sonar when it comes out, and if they are already familiar with an included synth they really like, it'll be a smoother transition. 

 

 

[chris.r]

2 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

My car is already subscription (OnStar). If I want remote access to it or to check stats, I have to pay $15 a month
I got a few years of free access when I bought it. Actual appliances have already gone this way.

My single question would be, can you still drive your car or keep using your appliance in case the maker decide to close? (not wishing you any of it)  

[marcL]

1 hour ago, JohnnyV said:

@User 905133   where did you find this quote. I'm looking for clarification regarding the removal of the Activation time out?

Nowadays it is common that nobody talks about activation! The user has to find it out after he has paid!

[garybuckels]

So when is all this gonna happen? A week, a month, 'next' year? (no pun intended)

[Noel Borthwick]

7 minutes ago, chris.r said:

My single question would be, can you still drive your car or keep using your appliance in case the maker decide to close? (not wishing you any of it)  

Cakewalk as a company closed in 2018. My question to you is can you still use SONAR Platinum today? If the answer is yes, then you have your answer for the future.
Most ethical companies handle terminating events like that gracefully and we are no exception. When Cakewalk was shut down, we had escrow plans to unlock licenses for users permanently if it came to that. We never needed to, since BandLab acquired the software and keeps the license servers running even though we make no profit off of it. 

[GreenLight]

22 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

>>"Annual" means no expiry / no deactivation after one year,   just no further free updates after the year, right?

Exactly. We were one of the few companies offering this model even in the SONAR days. How it works is you either pay for 12 consecutive monthly subs OR you purchase a one year subscription upfront. In both scenarios the last months version is permanently unlocked for you and you own it.  This is essentially no different than buying an annual version of the software outright. Many people who dislike subscription are unaware that we always did this.

I think the model you mentioned is great.

But I think it's important to consider why many people misunderstood the message. I think it is/was due to semantics. "Annual" feels like a very ambiguous word for what it is, it implicitly implies an annual subscription payment. If you'd call it "including 12 months of updates", that's immediately a lot clearer even if it refers to the same thing.

I am also one of those who prefer single payments to subscriptions. (That's what I was taught as a kid, how to be an economical consumer: always keep all your recurring costs to a minimum.) For non or semi-professionals especially, there are several problems with music software subscriptions in addition to the ideological ones: what if you go on vacation? What if you're just not using your tool for 5 weeks? What if you get a divorce/dog/get severely sick and are unable to produce for 3 months? Who wants to pay for that time? There's a reason gyms love subscriptions... ?

Anyway, as a long time user I'm very excited by the further development of Cakewalk! ? And I would be really happy if the new Cakewalk Sonar implemented a competitively priced model of "single payment with 12 months of updates included- last version permanently unlocked". Even if it was called a "subscription"... ?

[Magic Russ]

8 minutes ago, GreenLight said:

I think the model you mentioned is great.

But I think it's important to consider why many people misunderstood the message. I think it is/was due to semantics. "Annual" feels like a very ambiguous word for what it is, it implicitly implies an annual subscription payment. If you'd call it "including 12 months of updates", that's immediately a lot clearer even if it refers to the same thing.

I think you may be giving many of the people who misunderstood the message a bit too much credit.

[Terry Kelley]

I'm staring at my Cakewalk for DOS floppy and thinking about how far we have come (users and the developers.) Given some of the issues with the past (such as how Cakewalk ended in 2018) there is no reason people can't express their doubt and concern and it IS justified even if those that made that happen are no longer involved. As one person said (paraphrasing) 'Engineers go about things often far different from marketing.' 

But considering how CbB and the developers themselves have treated us since 2018, I willing to give them a lot of leeway. And I'll bet they don't forget about us. Maybe we will be the ones that benefit from our willingness to try and help (even when I did ask extraordinarily stupid questions that caused them to burst out laughing.)

As long as I can use Cakewalk, I will continue to use it. Hopefully I can. With a little want included.

Edited June 7, 2023 by Terry Kelley

[marcL]

14 minutes ago, Noel Borthwick said:

Cakewalk as a company closed in 2018. My question to you is can you still use SONAR Platinum today? If the answer is yes, then you have your answer for the future.
Most ethical companies handle terminating events like that gracefully and we are no exception. When Cakewalk was shut down, we had escrow plans to unlock licenses for users permanently if it came to that. We never needed to, since BandLab acquired the software and keeps the license servers running even though we make no profit off of it. 

We are very thankful for your grace! ? And as we depend on it, we hope it will still be true in the future!

Frankly, I would prefer some sort of real offline activation (like Reaper, Audiothing, United Plugins, ...). I guess you think this is paranoia, maybe you're right! But I don't like too many dependencies for my music.

Paying for Sonar again (even after lifetime upgrade) is no problem, I understand this, you did a great job on the bugfixes and updates and this has to be honored!

[Teksonik]

6 hours ago, garybrun said:

Life time updates as long as the company exists??

That's obvious but the company has had the lifetime free updates plan for over two decades and they're going really strong. One of the most popular DAWs based on the number of users.   Of course no business is 100% bulletproof but if they go under then it's likely the industry as a whole is in big trouble.

They make their money by attracting new users instead of milking old ones like Bitwig does for example. Cakewalk tried something similar to Bitwig's update plan in the past and well we all know how that worked out. 

I'm more worried about Sonar's long term viability than the other DAW.  

[Magic Russ]

1 minute ago, Teksonik said:

That's obvious but the company has had the lifetime free updates plan for over two decades and they're going really strong. One of the most popular DAWs based on the number of users.   Of course no business is 100% bulletproof but if they go under then it's likely the industry as a whole is in big trouble.

They make their money by attracting new users instead of milking old ones like Bitwig does for example. Cakewalk tried something similar to Bitwig's update plan in the past and well we all know how that worked out. 

I'm more worried about Sonar's long term viability than the other DAW.  

I don't think it's fair to blame Cakewalk's demise on the update plan.  I recall having read that they were losing money as early as the Roland days.  Besides, if it's such a terrible idea, why did Bitwig take it up and why are they having success with it?

[LawTunes]

As a long time Cakewalk/Sonar/etc. user I am very excited by the news about new Sonar.  I just want to make sure that my getting-on-in-years Windows 10 system, which has always run CbB without incident, supports the new product, after my recent experience with the long-awaited new Kontakt 7 in terms of graphics support.  I bought and installed the Kontakt 7 upgrade as soon as it was available.  However, when I tried  to run it and got the black screen instead of the user interface.  I subsequently learned from others experiencing this issue that Kontakt 7 requires not just Direct3D DDI 11.1 which my system has, but also Feature Level 11, which it does not and my card cannot be so upgraded via drivers.  Extremely disappointing as I had for years been successfully running Kontakt 6 through all of its interim upgrades/versions.  and I unfortunately had to uninstall and get a refund.   Can you please confirm that new Sonar will not require Feature Level 11?  Thank you.

[Teksonik]

6 hours ago, Will. said:

Why are you so angry and disappointed?

I'm not "angry" at all nor am I disappointed because I saw this coming from the day CbB was set free. I knew one day a zero profit product would be discontinued. If you didn't see it coming then your faith in mankind is stronger than mine. 

I know you're just in fanboi mode but I never said I wouldn't purchase the upgrade to the new Sonar (if it is indeed a upgrade). I simply said it will have to bring value equal to the cost.

No matter what the cost for the new Sonar be it will have to be that much better than the free version or good luck getting people to "upgrade". That's just a reality.

Bandlab made a business decision but we as end users can't also make a business decision? You may just blindly throw money at a company but many of us will make the decision whether the new price and product is worth it or not once all the facts are revealed.

[chris.r]

47 minutes ago, Noel Borthwick said:

Cakewalk as a company closed in 2018. My question to you is can you still use SONAR Platinum today? If the answer is yes, then you have your answer for the future.
Most ethical companies handle terminating events like that gracefully and we are no exception. When Cakewalk was shut down, we had escrow plans to unlock licenses for users permanently if it came to that. We never needed to, since BandLab acquired the software and keeps the license servers running even though we make no profit off of it. 

Thanks, pretty sure many are grateful for the servers being kept live, including me. Still for me (pretty sure for many others too but let me speak for myself), calling a buying scheme "rent to own" then keeping the software on a 6-months period of re-authorization leash is quite disconcerting for the "owner". A potential license unlock assurance helps just a little, wouldn't want to buy a car under such agreement  

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

30 minutes ago, Magic Russ said:

I think you may be giving many of the people who misunderstood the message a bit too much credit.

If your PR department directed you to say something which might be interpreted ambiguously by your consumer/user base and that happens, at which point you hold the company accountable?

 

[Will.]

13 minutes ago, Teksonik said:

I know you're just in fanboi mode

Ah! Thanks. You're so kind! To be in Fanboi mode is better than being in grumpyboi mode all day. 

Fanboi for life.

W. 

[Teksonik]

3 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

My car is already subscription (OnStar). If I want remote access to it or to check stats, I have to pay $15 a month
I got a few years of free access when I bought it. Actual appliances have already gone this way. 
The classic 90's software model of paying for a specific version has changed many years ago whether we like it or not. As I mentioned in another thread, back in the day we had a hybrid model where you could do either pay as you go or buy that years version outright. It worked pretty well and satisfied most users needs.
While we haven't baked the final details I think Cakewalk's offering will be a pretty compelling value even compared to other DAW's. Obviously not free...

Well you make that sound like it's going to be a subscription model and if so then I'm out. Nothing personal but I simply will not subscribe to any software. Anyone who thinks it through long term will come to the same conclusion.

Sell me a license for a one time expense, then sell upgrades from there. Sell expansions if you wish. Bug fixes should be free. Yearly update plans just put pressure on developers to produce something so people think they're getting value for their update plan money. That's why I jumped off the Sonar train after X3 when all the business schemes started happening and well...we saw how that worked out for Cakewalk.  

But again "we haven't baked the final details". Then keep all of it secret until you do bake those final details. Just tell us the cost up front and we'll make our decisions based on that. Generating hype isn't going to help. 

All you're doing is fueling rampant speculation.