Teksonik Posted June 7, 2023 Share Posted June 7, 2023 6 hours ago, garybrun said: Life time updates as long as the company exists?? That's obvious but the company has had the lifetime free updates plan for over two decades and they're going really strong. One of the most popular DAWs based on the number of users. Of course no business is 100% bulletproof but if they go under then it's likely the industry as a whole is in big trouble. They make their money by attracting new users instead of milking old ones like Bitwig does for example. Cakewalk tried something similar to Bitwig's update plan in the past and well we all know how that worked out. I'm more worried about Sonar's long term viability than the other DAW. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Russ Posted June 7, 2023 Share Posted June 7, 2023 1 minute ago, Teksonik said: That's obvious but the company has had the lifetime free updates plan for over two decades and they're going really strong. One of the most popular DAWs based on the number of users. Of course no business is 100% bulletproof but if they go under then it's likely the industry as a whole is in big trouble. They make their money by attracting new users instead of milking old ones like Bitwig does for example. Cakewalk tried something similar to Bitwig's update plan in the past and well we all know how that worked out. I'm more worried about Sonar's long term viability than the other DAW. I don't think it's fair to blame Cakewalk's demise on the update plan. I recall having read that they were losing money as early as the Roland days. Besides, if it's such a terrible idea, why did Bitwig take it up and why are they having success with it? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawTunes Posted June 7, 2023 Share Posted June 7, 2023 As a long time Cakewalk/Sonar/etc. user I am very excited by the news about new Sonar. I just want to make sure that my getting-on-in-years Windows 10 system, which has always run CbB without incident, supports the new product, after my recent experience with the long-awaited new Kontakt 7 in terms of graphics support. I bought and installed the Kontakt 7 upgrade as soon as it was available. However, when I tried to run it and got the black screen instead of the user interface. I subsequently learned from others experiencing this issue that Kontakt 7 requires not just Direct3D DDI 11.1 which my system has, but also Feature Level 11, which it does not and my card cannot be so upgraded via drivers. Extremely disappointing as I had for years been successfully running Kontakt 6 through all of its interim upgrades/versions. and I unfortunately had to uninstall and get a refund. Can you please confirm that new Sonar will not require Feature Level 11? Thank you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teksonik Posted June 7, 2023 Share Posted June 7, 2023 6 hours ago, Will. said: Why are you so angry and disappointed? I'm not "angry" at all nor am I disappointed because I saw this coming from the day CbB was set free. I knew one day a zero profit product would be discontinued. If you didn't see it coming then your faith in mankind is stronger than mine. I know you're just in fanboi mode but I never said I wouldn't purchase the upgrade to the new Sonar (if it is indeed a upgrade). I simply said it will have to bring value equal to the cost. No matter what the cost for the new Sonar be it will have to be that much better than the free version or good luck getting people to "upgrade". That's just a reality. Bandlab made a business decision but we as end users can't also make a business decision? You may just blindly throw money at a company but many of us will make the decision whether the new price and product is worth it or not once all the facts are revealed. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.r Posted June 7, 2023 Share Posted June 7, 2023 47 minutes ago, Noel Borthwick said: Cakewalk as a company closed in 2018. My question to you is can you still use SONAR Platinum today? If the answer is yes, then you have your answer for the future. Most ethical companies handle terminating events like that gracefully and we are no exception. When Cakewalk was shut down, we had escrow plans to unlock licenses for users permanently if it came to that. We never needed to, since BandLab acquired the software and keeps the license servers running even though we make no profit off of it. Thanks, pretty sure many are grateful for the servers being kept live, including me. Still for me (pretty sure for many others too but let me speak for myself), calling a buying scheme "rent to own" then keeping the software on a 6-months period of re-authorization leash is quite disconcerting for the "owner". A potential license unlock assurance helps just a little, wouldn't want to buy a car under such agreement 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno de Souza Lino Posted June 7, 2023 Share Posted June 7, 2023 30 minutes ago, Magic Russ said: I think you may be giving many of the people who misunderstood the message a bit too much credit. If your PR department directed you to say something which might be interpreted ambiguously by your consumer/user base and that happens, at which point you hold the company accountable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will. Posted June 7, 2023 Share Posted June 7, 2023 13 minutes ago, Teksonik said: I know you're just in fanboi mode Ah! Thanks. You're so kind! To be in Fanboi mode is better than being in grumpyboi mode all day. Fanboi for life. W. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teksonik Posted June 7, 2023 Share Posted June 7, 2023 3 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said: My car is already subscription (OnStar). If I want remote access to it or to check stats, I have to pay $15 a month I got a few years of free access when I bought it. Actual appliances have already gone this way. The classic 90's software model of paying for a specific version has changed many years ago whether we like it or not. As I mentioned in another thread, back in the day we had a hybrid model where you could do either pay as you go or buy that years version outright. It worked pretty well and satisfied most users needs. While we haven't baked the final details I think Cakewalk's offering will be a pretty compelling value even compared to other DAW's. Obviously not free... Well you make that sound like it's going to be a subscription model and if so then I'm out. Nothing personal but I simply will not subscribe to any software. Anyone who thinks it through long term will come to the same conclusion. Sell me a license for a one time expense, then sell upgrades from there. Sell expansions if you wish. Bug fixes should be free. Yearly update plans just put pressure on developers to produce something so people think they're getting value for their update plan money. That's why I jumped off the Sonar train after X3 when all the business schemes started happening and well...we saw how that worked out for Cakewalk. But again "we haven't baked the final details". Then keep all of it secret until you do bake those final details. Just tell us the cost up front and we'll make our decisions based on that. Generating hype isn't going to help. All you're doing is fueling rampant speculation. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Russ Posted June 7, 2023 Share Posted June 7, 2023 I think at this point any reasonable person has discerned that outside of an official announcement, anything more said on pricing and licensing will be nothing more than FUD, venting, ranting, or possibly virtue signalling. With that out of the way, let's talk about the direction these products are going in. "Less work, more flow" is an awesome slogan, but what's in the pipeline to actually achieve that? What is Next? Is it just a port of BandLab software or something more? Is it going to be competing with FL, Ableton, and Bitwig? What else is in store for Sonar? The change to vector graphics might not be enough to open everyone's wallet. What about the instruments? What gets included, outdated, updated? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle.M Posted June 7, 2023 Share Posted June 7, 2023 8 minutes ago, Teksonik said: Well you make that sound like it's going to be a subscription model and if so then I'm out. Nothing personal but I simply will not subscribe to any software. Anyone who thinks it through long term will come to the same conclusion. Sell me a license for a one time expense, then sell upgrades from there. Sell expansions if you wish. Bug fixes should be free. Yearly update plans just put pressure on developers to produce something so people think they're getting value for their update plan money. That's why I jumped off the Sonar train after X3 when all the business schemes started happening and well...we saw how that worked out for Cakewalk. But again "we haven't baked the final details". Then keep all of it secret until you do bake those final details. Just tell us the cost up front and we'll make our decisions based on that. Generating hype isn't going to help. All you're doing is fueling Wow! Sad individual. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teksonik Posted June 7, 2023 Share Posted June 7, 2023 4 minutes ago, Kyle.M said: Wow! Sad individual. Yes you are! It's just a DAW. I'm not talking smack about your Mother.? Calm down, I'm just giving my opinion on the matter. If that triggers you then it's out of my control. 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno de Souza Lino Posted June 7, 2023 Share Posted June 7, 2023 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Magic Russ said: I think at this point any reasonable person has discerned that outside of an official announcement, anything more said on pricing and licensing will be nothing more than FUD, venting, ranting, or possibly virtue signalling. Considering some of the words said by people like Noel are not official statements despite them working for Bandlab, let's call everyone who did that unreasonable because they can't keep their mouths shut. Sounds fair. But since we can always add yet another gallon to said fire, who knows if the statement was half delivered on purpose so this partially dead forum would have some traffic? Edited June 7, 2023 by Bruno de Souza Lino Conspiracy added for comedic effect. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitman Posted June 7, 2023 Share Posted June 7, 2023 I don't subscribe to any software nor will I subscribe. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Kelley Posted June 7, 2023 Share Posted June 7, 2023 Is it too early to start suggesting new Sonar features? Just asking for a friend. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Anderton Posted June 7, 2023 Share Posted June 7, 2023 FWIW, some people prefer subscriptions. This isn't only about people who don't have enough cash upfront. For example, if you're collaborating on mixes with someone who uses Steven Slate's plugins but you don't have them installed on your machine, you can subscribe for a month or two, finish the mixes, and move on. Similarly, if you use Pro Tools Artist but need to do something more advanced for a particular project, you can subscribe to Pro Tools Studio for a month for $30. I'm not saying subscriptions are better, just that they work for some people even though they don't work for others. I think the most successful option for companies by far is offering both - subscriptions that include periodic minor updates or goodies, but these don't become available to owners of the "perpetual" version until they do the next major update. For me, the HUGE problem with subscriptions is if your work is held hostage when you stop paying. That's why I thought the old Sonar rent-to-buy approach of "if your subscription stops, keep using the program...you just don't get any updates" made a lot of sense. It was also quite generous compared to other companies of that era (I'm looking at you, Adobe). But putting all the pricing issues aside, the fact that Cakewalk continues moving forward and progressing is ultimately what matters. And it's much better news than "Thanks for your support over the years, we just sold Cakewalk to Wal-Mart, have a nice day" 22 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kc23 Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 "if your subscription stops, keep using the program... you just don't get any updates" it´s not "rent to buy". That is a subscription, plain and simple. So, they want me to pay for a program, and when bugs are found, they expect me to pay them again for me to get those fixes? Pay them to get the fixed version of the thing I already payed and that was faulty to begin with? pffff... I would say that definitely qualifies as holding your work hostage. And I also would say, that in daw-world, the best business model in my opinion goes to Reaper: "Pay your license, whichever of the two tiers corresponds to you, and we´ll give you every update we roll out until the next mayor iteration comes to an end." And those updates come with fixes and new features. And, the program is the same for everyone. Either that, or lifetime updates. But... yeah. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misha Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 "Thanks for your support over the years, we just sold Cakewalk to Wal-Mart, have a nice day" LOL. That is actually another concern. It was mentioned several times after Gibson thing (even in this thread), that there was a plan "B" to permanently unlock existing licenses. That brings me to a question. Actually two. 1) Can a similar promise be made on the new paid (non-subscription) licenses if unfortunate (or fortunate) event similar to Gibson happens? 2)Why there is a 6 month de-activation happening in the first place? I do get that "free" is "free" while it's free, but a paid perpetual license, in my view should never de-activate on a chosen machine, while that machine is intact. I own a decent set of musical software. Only one, a very minor app deactivated and asked to be re-activated after a period of time. That one and Cakewalk. What bothers Bakers, not allowing to permanently activate license on particular machine (Machine ID) , like 90%+ of others do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackson white Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 (edited) On 6/6/2023 at 7:41 AM, Lord Tim said: I have a lot of ... Mac users .,. same in my network. if the changes/strategy/investment leads to basic cross platform support, that would address the one major missing feature with Sonar. (currently exploring candidates for a common project platform to improve productivity across a diverse group of musicians/projects) ... np with calling it Sonar here, but if they gonna rebrand. might have considered a new name given the history/baggage and overall tendency for far too many to repeat nonsense as if it were fact on public forums. ? and assuming there's no issue with NeXT. ? ... 1 hour ago, Craig Anderton said: For me, the HUGE problem with subscriptions is if your work is held hostage when you stop paying. ^^ showstopper otherwise, i only look at what you get for what you pay but believe it's a better investment to own a good tool that you're going to use very day than rent. imo, too many subscriptions tend to spawn feature bloats to justify subscription costs and end up compromising the usefulness / robustness of core functionality. ymmv Edited June 8, 2023 by jackson white grammar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misha Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 (edited) "The "check activation" thing has been talked about a lot and the short answer is: 1. Small team, finite resources to support the product, so the more people on a current product, the less wild goose chases for old bugs that may already have been fixed in the current version" This makes "0" sense. Most software titles have "Automatically check for updates" option. Same goes for Cakewalk. Locally shutting down a paid license software is not a friendly or cool thing to do to a customer. It didn't bother me too much with cheap / free versions... As I mentioned, only a minor software title (single developer gig) done similar from my experience. That and Cakewalk. I hope some kind of clarity on that is given prior purchasing paid annual license. Bottom line, if a full annual license is purchased, there should be an option/choice to keep this license on a local machine as most companies do, without any trickery with de-activating software. Edited June 8, 2023 by Misha 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno de Souza Lino Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 37 minutes ago, Lord Tim said: 1. Small team, finite resources to support the product, so the more people on a current product, the less wild goose chases for old bugs that may already have been fixed in the current version I believe the people that developed Natron used the same reasoning for requiring you to fill a form in order to give you access to the download and after some small time, they left the project to the community because nobody was using it. I'd love to believe in the whole "small team, finite resources to support the product." But then you have this bandcamp-like service which sells loops, has free AI mastering, song composer and an online DAW which integrates with the one that supposedly has small support. Who are these ninja rockstar coders, cause there will be a bunch of companies lining up with blank checks ready to hire them. 1 hour ago, Craig Anderton said: That's why I thought the old Sonar rent-to-buy approach of "if your subscription stops, keep using the program...you just don't get any updates" made a lot of sense. "Rent-to-buy" is just another term for a payment plan. What you're describing is a subscription plan which only applies to updates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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