Introducing Cakewalk Next and our new brand identity

[Jean-Philippe ROGER]

Hello !

Paying for complete and functional software doesn't bother me, I've done it since Sonar X1 and up to Sonar Platinum but I would like issues such as the assignment of outputs on the external effects module to be corrected

[Grebz]

8 hours ago, rfssongs said:

To me anyway I thought the theme editor was a waste of time. Both to use & to create. This is about music not graphics. I read about it, even downloaded it. I don't even think I ever used it. I figured why bother. If it does not help with the music then why ? IMO.

Because it's fun to customize the tools you use. Nobody forces you to use the Theme Editor. If you don't see the point, why even bother downloading it? I love making themes. My whole life doesn't revolve around music and music only. I take great pleasure in making music with Cakewalk/Sonar, AND I take great pleasure in making themes.

Sonar team:
I'm very glad the new interface is vector-based, I've been hoping and waiting for this for years, but I'm bitterly disappointed that we can no longer edit the icons and graphic elements (if that's the case).
Why not? If we have the know-how, the will and the time to offer the community original and varied new themes, why not give us the tools to do so?

[Take59]

What happens to users who are entitled to Lifetime Updates on SONAR Platinum? SONAR Platinum was discontinued shortly after I paid the lifetime update fee. I think it will be a problem if the rights are not continued in the new SONAR.

[msmcleod]

6 minutes ago, Grebz said:

Sonar team:
I'm very glad the new interface is vector-based, I've been hoping and waiting for this for years, but I'm bitterly disappointed that we can no longer edit the icons and graphic elements (if that's the case).
Why not? If we have the know-how, the will and the time to offer the community original and varied new themes, why not give us the tools to do so?

The transition to vector based images is taking several months. 

To support user vector graphics will require writing a completely new Theme Editor.  We're not saying this will never be done, but it won't be done for the first release of Sonar.

[ancjava]

Can staff confirm if the new Sonar will require more resources than CbB or if the PC that run CbB smoothly (in my case 4 core CPU and 16 GB of RAM) should be enough to get the same performance out of new Sonar?

[Grebz]

10 minutes ago, msmcleod said:

The transition to vector based images is taking several months. 

To support user vector graphics will require writing a completely new Theme Editor.  We're not saying this will never be done, but it won't be done for the first release of Sonar.

Yes, please give me hope ?
Not now, for sure, but "We're not saying this will never be done" is sweet to my ears. Yes, please, do it at some point.
You know what? Theme-makers can actually make people more attracted to a software. Some may not like the basic look, but if they can find a theme they enjoy, then they will want to use the software more.

I know, it's not much, but looks are also important, and the community is very sensitive to customization possibilities. Look at the Reaper community, how they brag "oh we can change this, edit that, and the other DAWs can't, ha ha ha, got you, we're the best".
So pretty pretty please, with sugar on top, allow us to make you shine among the stars ?

(Sonar user since 2005, here)

[msmcleod]

13 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

49 minutes ago, ancjava said:

Can staff confirm if the new Sonar will require more resources than CbB or if the PC that run CbB smoothly (in my case 4 core CPU and 16 GB of RAM) should be enough to get the same performance out of new Sonar?

From what I understand from the posts by the devs, other than the new UI update that's coming and probably a few new bells and whistles, this is going to be identical to the current CbB under the hood on launch.

This is correct.  It'll be just CbB with new images, high dpi support and a few extra feature enhancements.

There is obviously some difference between rendering vector based images vs static bitmaps, but we'll be monitoring the performance of this closely as more of the application is converted over.  There are a few approaches we can take to mitigate any adverse performance effects of rendering vector based images, should it become a problem.

[Canopus]

58 minutes ago, msmcleod said:

To support user vector graphics will require writing a completely new Theme Editor.  We're not saying this will never be done, but it won't be done for the first release of Sonar.

I assume these vector images are stored as svg files. May I ask, are these images stored as SVG in a resource DLL (which of course is what an *.sth/theme file basically is)?

[chris.r]

6 hours ago, flangad said:

15 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

>>"Annual" means no expiry / no deactivation after one year,   just no further free updates after the year, right?

Exactly. We were one of the few companies offering this model even in the SONAR days. How it works is you either pay for 12 consecutive monthly subs OR you purchase a one year subscription upfront. In both scenarios the last months version is permanently unlocked for you and you own it(...)

 

This model is fair if "updates" means "new features", but what about bug corrections? if someone paid for a software with lifetime use, at least bug corrections should be available for free with no time limits.

I'm afraid there will be no such thing as "permanently unlocked" and "you own it" nor even lifetime use the way we would like to see it. The 6 months authorization period is embedded in Cakewalk's code since at least Sonar Platinum if not earlier. They'll still hold the plug and ultimately they will decide anytime if they want to pull it out or not, we're depending on their grace and I don't even expect it to change in a slight way, period.

Ever since CbB has started with this sort of lock scheme I had the feelings something is going in the background, even in a post I compared the 6-months authorization to a (free) subscription when I got bashed in the head by many, only now it occurred to me that after 5 years of some sort of an intermission period they now can go back to the previous scheme of business. To me it seems clear now that was probably the hidden plan since beginning. A free software with 6-months authorization, oh come on!

How many times you can step into the same river? Once in my life I decided to make an exception and took a risk when buying into lifetime updates, LOL! And I even wasn't aware of the 6-months lock scheme at that moment.

6 hours ago, JnTuneTech said:

But make no mistake - software is not like the hardware it runs on or say, a toaster or a pair of shoes for instance, -perchance in our world maybe a nicely crafted guitar even.  -With software, all that is sold, or given access to for free, -depending on the licensing terms-, is whatever rights are stated in the TOS for us to use it. -Not own it. I know I never have. I don't own any software products or IP.

We know, it's just a wording. Example: I bought a keyboard and I can still use it even after the company has gone, I can use it until it's broken. With the licensing, what we would expect is to hold the right to use a paid software anytime (even after end of a company), not just 'rent' the right to use it until the company changes rules. Hold rights to use, not own the software, we get that.

For now with Cakewalk it's: renew your right to use it every 6-months, it's not "permanently", "owned" not even lifetime in it's original meaning (life of the company), in fact it's: util we pull the plug out. To me it's like false marketing, it's more like 'rent' and I never want to pay for that. I would want my software, that I hold rights to use indefinitely after I've bought it, to be able to install and run even after the company is gone provided all factors such as hardware and OS are intact. We're not getting it at all since some earlier versions of Cakewalk, think it's X2 or X1, we're only 'renting' it so long they allow us (have you experienced it going demo mode? I had, when there was some server error). Thankfully they keep it live so far.

The software may get "broken" by OS updates or change in hardware, or incompatibility with new plugins. Here's where we need the updates, that is fixes (apart from new features), free or paid depending on the company's chosen scheme. Lifetime updates should then grant you at least free updates (fixes) for the rest of life of the company. As simple as that.

Edited June 7, 2023 by chris.r

[Misha]

 "I would want my software, that I hold rights to use indefinitely after I've bought it, to be able to install and run even after the company is gone provided all factors such as hardware and OS are intact"

+1 

That is exactly what worried me since early days of Bandlab. I have projects from 90s that I do want to go back to at some point in my life and I don't want to be dependent on some server that might or might not work or mercy at those who might run he company in the future.  I still have boxed X1 and an older laptop that will allow to open older projects. That is what I want to see with "unlocked" paid future versions.

P.S. In my view, the whole 6month activation thing is absolutely meaningless,  as those who want to steal, will steal, but those who actually pay and support progress will suffer.   

[Noel Borthwick]

4 hours ago, GroverKen said:

I’ve been a user (and serial upgrader) of Cakewalk since the Windows 3.0 version and would ask one thing - please don’t lose the backwards compatibility. Last week I resurrected a project from February 1999 when I saved everything as .bun files. Lo and behold, the latest version unpacked everything successfully and I could continue from where I had left off all those years ago. My workflow may have changed and there might now many more “toys” to play with but it worked. Impressive!

Won't happen. It's the same base codebase so no functionally changes. It will be 100% compatible with earlier projects

[Byron Dickens]

3 hours ago, Take59 said:

What happens to users who are entitled to Lifetime Updates on SONAR Platinum? SONAR Platinum was discontinued shortly after I paid the lifetime update fee. I think it will be a problem if the rights are not continued in the new SONAR.

What is so hard to understand about the company that made that deal with you doesn't exist any more?

[Grebz]

1 minute ago, Byron Dickens said:

What is so hard to understand about the company that made that deal with you doesn't exist any more?

Absolutely. That would be a nice gesture from Bandlab to offer for example a 50% discount to those who have a serial number and a "life-time" licence from Sonar Platinum as an incentive and loyalty reward, sure, but they have no legal or even moral obligation to do that.
(but it would be nice ? )

[Noel Borthwick]

3 hours ago, ancjava said:

Can staff confirm if the new Sonar will require more resources than CbB or if the PC that run CbB smoothly (in my case 4 core CPU and 16 GB of RAM) should be enough to get the same performance out of new Sonar?

If it runs on cbb today there is a very good chance it will be fine. The main difference would be the new vector based UI but we don't expect that to require more resources. In fact it could take less since the overall footprint of the app will be smaller.

[gustabo]

4 hours ago, MarianoGF said:

Mmm, I'm not expecting BandLab to honour those who purchased lifetime updates, but lets say that when you acquire a company, you do it with its assets and liabilities.

They didn't acquire the company, they acquired the intellectual property.

[Teksonik]

2 hours ago, msmcleod said:

This is correct.  It'll be just CbB with new images, high dpi support and a few extra feature enhancements.

You realize of course that whatever you do is going to have to add value to the current free version commensurate to the cost of purchase or upgrade.

So let's just pull a number out of the air...let's say the cost to upgrade from the current free version to the new paid Sonar is $200. So now you've got to add $200 of value to the new Sonar in order to make it worth upgrading.

A new UI with a "few extra feature enhancements" is not likely to cut it at least for me and I'm probably not alone. 

But we're seeing in this thread the problem with partial announcements with the "important details" to follow.  All it does is spark rampant speculation and fear mongering. ("oh my god they're going subscription") and so on.

So I suggest putting all your cards on the table now. Just tell us what the price will be. Just tell us if there will be discounts for paying customer of the old Sonar and so on.

Clearing the air now will help you and the user base as well.

To clear things up from my end I will never subscribe to software so if that's the way things are going tell me now so I can move on and focus on the other 5 DAWs I own, one of which has lifetime free updates.

[garybrun]

4 minutes ago, Teksonik said:

 

To clear things up from my end I will never subscribe to software so if that's the way things are going tell me now so I can move on and focus on the other 5 DAWs I own, one of which has lifetime free updates.

Life time updates as long as the company exists??

[tulamide]

7 minutes ago, garybrun said:

Life time updates as long as the company exists??

Not sure, what direction this goes, but of course. Which in the case of the company Teksonik obviously refers to would mean, that you could have bought it in 1997 and will still get free updates on version and features. Pretty impressive.

[Will.]

2 hours ago, Teksonik said:

You realize of course that whatever you do is going to have to add value to the current free version commensurate to the cost of purchase or upgrade.

So let's just pull a number out of the air...let's say the cost to upgrade from the current free version to the new paid Sonar is $200. So now you've got to add $200 of value to the new Sonar in order to make it worth upgrading.

A new UI with a "few extra feature enhancements" is not likely to cut it at least for me and I'm probably not alone. 

But we're seeing in this thread the problem with partial announcements with the "important details" to follow.  All it does is spark rampant speculation and fear mongering. ("oh my god they're going subscription") and so on.

So I suggest putting all your cards on the table now. Just tell us what the price will be. Just tell us if there will be discounts for paying customer of the old Sonar and so on.

Clearing the air now will help you and the user base as well.

To clear things up from my end I will never subscribe to software so if that's the way things are going tell me now so I can move on and focus on the other 5 DAWs I own, one of which has lifetime free updates.

Why are you so angry and disappointed? Pretty sure you are welcome to move to your other 5 Daws you "Own." Using that loosely in context of what youve said with your own mouth. 

100% of our permanent family members here already agrees on a fee. Some of us has even suggested and asked for this in multiple topics to happen so that we can support the DAW and keep growing by throwing resources in to the DAW, cause we have seen the potential it always had. 

If you are really unhappy in not wanting to pay for the DAW or any other software as you have stated, then dont use them. 

Come on people! You can not run a business without making a profit to put towards the growth of your company. Every resource cost money. The staff that works 100% day in and day out on this - needs to get paid too. Every bug that gets fixed, cost money. Theres litterally manpower that goes into this and i am pretty sure you wont get up every morning and go work for free | or | do something for free and dont get appreciated for your hardwork. 

I am pretty sure everyone agrees with me on this. 

Lets keep showing our support and appreciation towards our them. I too am sometimes unhappy with certain features, but guess what? I always appreciate what they do and give.  We cant always have things our way just because we feel so.

Thats the reality. 

Edited June 7, 2023 by Will.

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

37 minutes ago, Teksonik said:

But we're seeing in this thread the problem with partial announcements with the "important details" to follow.  All it does is spark rampant speculation and fear mongering. ("oh my god they're going subscription") and so on.

Personally, whenever a company starts preparing the ground in advance and enters with all this flowery language about vision statements and how much they care about the users of their software, they're gonna pull the rug and are trying to convince me it's not gonna hurt when it happens. I'm not sure when and how they're gonna do it, but it will happen.

43 minutes ago, Teksonik said:

So I suggest putting all your cards on the table now. Just tell us what the price will be. Just tell us if there will be discounts for paying customer of the old Sonar and so on.

They can't because of what I mentioned before, especially considering CbB effectively has no killer features which would make sure it will be a seller and it hasn't had that mind share since it went into the whole "rent-to-own" scheme years ago. The most they can hope atm is look at how people react at "the news" and see how they can act in accordance so the least amount of profit loss and damage control is necessary.