Export Entire Mix does not export entire mix

[Chris Boshuizen]

57 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said:

That good does it do to go round and round about the name of the existing feature and how it was implemented 20 years ago? Just add a new one and get on with it. The only thing worthy of debate at this point is what to call the new feature.

Yes, I definitely started this thread in the spirit of a feature request. 

How about Entire Project? Because then you can have selected tracks/buses -> through entire mix  be different.

[Mark Morgon-Shaw]

16 hours ago, Bruno de Souza Lino said:

The sad part of all that is not the wonky functionality itself IMO, but seeing people defending said design flaw

One user's design flaw is another's established workflow. 

Personally I don't see it as design flaw , I see it as a RTFM situation. Sometimes when I buy a new car from a different manufacturer the reverse gear is in a different place. It might be push down and top left to find it...instead of pull up and bottom left on the previous car. Does this mean I should petition the manufacturer to change it because other cars I've driven do it differently ? Or should I just....you know..learn how to drive it the way it's been designed ?  

16 hours ago, Bruno de Souza Lino said:

 and engaging into semantics arguments as if the whole issue with the thing was a matter of whoever is complaining about it not understanding the meaning of words.

You misunderstood. I am talking about  logical ( not lexical ) semantics  " concerned with matters such as sense and reference and presupposition and implication "

16 hours ago, Bruno de Souza Lino said:

Despite knowing about these quirks, I still run into these problems when I export because no other DAW does it that way. 

Well that is a shame , I export approx 1,000 files a year from Cakewalk and I can't recall the last time it didn't export what I thought it should. I don't use any other DAWs so I don't get confused between them working differently to each other. Maybe that's the key. 

[Mark Morgon-Shaw]

1 hour ago, Starship Krupa said:

We dislike an existing feature. We agree on how we would like that feature to work instead. The devs are not going to change the existing feature to suit how we want it to work, because there is a (silent) majority who are fine with how the existing feature works. This is assumed since nobody but 5 of us in this topic are speaking up about it. The best thing to do is just add a new feature that functions as we would like it to.

Exactly. Adding things is fine - Removing long established workflows - not fine

I've had a couple of features added that I requested too, the lock button on the arpeggiator and I went to some lengths to convince them to add Folders to the Export Module Options which is a real boon for bouncing your stems all in one go.

None of these affected any existing workflows and can happily be ignored by those who have no need for them.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Mark Morgon-Shaw

[Chris Boshuizen]

55 minutes ago, Mark Morgon-Shaw said:

One user's design flaw is another's established workflow. 

Personally I don't see it as design flaw , I see it as a RTFM situation. Sometimes when I buy a new car from a different manufacturer the reverse gear is in a different place. It might be push down and top left to find it...instead of pull up and bottom left on the previous car. Does this mean I should petition the manufacturer to change it because other cars I've driven do it differently ? Or should I just....you know..learn how to drive it the way it's been designed ?  

You misunderstood. I am talking about  logical ( not lexical ) semantics  " concerned with matters such as sense and reference and presupposition and implication "

Well that is a shame , I export approx 1,000 files a year from Cakewalk and I can't recall the last time it didn't export what I thought it should. I don't use any other DAWs so I don't get confused between them working differently to each other. Maybe that's the key. 

I've been using Cake for nearly 25 years, and I don't have a perfect track record remembering this. In fact, ever after starting this thread I still made the mistake 3 more times this week! 

But not only do I use other DAWs, I also use related apps like video editing software. If Adobe Premiere Pro had this design issue, there'd be riots! Imagine running a 20 hour rendering project to find out it had only exported the subtitle track because that was where your last mouse click was! 

While some of us have remembered the necessary song and dance routine to get it to do what we want, those small inconveniences still represent time delays, cognitive burdens, and overall friction in the creative process.  You may be relieved if you weren't paying those microscopic mental taxes every step along the way. 

[Mark Morgon-Shaw]

1 hour ago, Chris Boshuizen said:

I've been using Cake for nearly 25 years,

I think I may have a year or two on you but I would have thought by now you would have learned. Don't expect the default system behaviour to be changed just because you have poor recall.  

1 hour ago, Chris Boshuizen said:

ever after starting this thread I still made the mistake 3 more times this week! 

Well they say mistakes are for learning from not repeating

1 hour ago, Chris Boshuizen said:

But not only do I use other DAWs, I also use related apps like video editing software. If Adobe Premiere Pro had this design issue, there'd be riots! Imagine running a 20 hour rendering project to find out it had only exported the subtitle track because that was where your last mouse click was! 

Yes I have to use other software too , I use Wavelab and RX but it doesn't make me forget how Cakewalk works. Cakewalk preceded Adobe Premiere by about a decade....so who's way is right ? 

2 hours ago, Chris Boshuizen said:

While some of us have remembered the necessary song and dance routine to get it to do what we want,

  Well I imagine it's most of us or we'd never get anything finished 

2 hours ago, Chris Boshuizen said:

those small inconveniences still represent time delays, cognitive burdens, and overall friction in the creative process.  You may be relieved if you weren't paying those microscopic mental taxes every step along the way. 

I probably use Cakewalk more than the average user but I've never felt delayed or cognitively burdened or I'd probably use something else. 

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

3 hours ago, Mark Morgon-Shaw said:

One user's design flaw is another's established workflow. 

Changing in this case would not affect any workflow for that specific case.

3 hours ago, Mark Morgon-Shaw said:

Personally I don't see it as design flaw , I see it as a RTFM situation.

If I have to read your manual to learn how to use a function called "Export Audio" and that is not necessary in every other piece of hardware which has it, then you're probably not doing your homework in regards to User Interface intuitiveness and standardized mental models.

3 hours ago, Mark Morgon-Shaw said:

Sometimes when I buy a new car from a different manufacturer the reverse gear is in a different place. It might be push down and top left to find it...instead of pull up and bottom left on the previous car. Does this mean I should petition the manufacturer to change it because other cars I've driven do it differently ? Or should I just....you know..learn how to drive it the way it's been designed ?  

This analogy is not equivalent to the current scenario, because the mental model to how you change gears is the same. What is equivalent would be doing something unrelated to shifting you did in all the other cars you had before changes how your gear shifter works in this one.

4 hours ago, Mark Morgon-Shaw said:

Well that is a shame , I export approx 1,000 files a year from Cakewalk and I can't recall the last time it didn't export what I thought it should. I don't use any other DAWs so I don't get confused between them working differently to each other. Maybe that's the key. 

Then pat yourself in the back. You're a special little piece of individual which never makes mistakes like everyone else. I envy you.

3 hours ago, Mark Morgon-Shaw said:

Exactly. Adding things is fine - Removing long established workflows - not fine

You're missing the point. Nobody wants to remove anything.

[OutrageProductions]

C'mon kids... it's not that difficult; <Ctrl-A><E>.

Boom! Done.

[Chris Boshuizen]

@Mark Morgon-Shaw I guess I'm trying to see the bigger picture here too. I'd love Cake to be around for another 25 years more, but that won't happen unless it keeps up with the times. If something can be done faster in another DAW, or RTFM is required because things are too different., not a familiar, or unintuitive, we'll lose users, and that would be a shame.  

[Lord Tim]

Just to be clear with my earlier post where I mentioned it was a naming issue more than anything else, I still stand by that, but I think my point was lost that the desired outcome of "press this button, it gives you the entire project as you hear it playing back" doesn't yet exist and it should, and the existing "Entire Mix" preset should be renamed to something less ambiguous ("Route Audio through Entire Project" or something? I'm sure Someone Smarter Than Me could figure out a much better name).

I think that we're all pretty much on the same page here with what we're after, if we're not trying to split hairs.

Personally, I'm fine with what @OutrageProductions suggested and it's second nature now to how I work too, but that doesn't mean it should be the only option for doing it. The more clear the outcome, the less "hey why is my mix export silent?!!" posts we'll get on the forum, and that's a good thing.

[Mark Morgon-Shaw]

8 hours ago, Chris Boshuizen said:

@Mark Morgon-Shaw I guess I'm trying to see the bigger picture here too. I'd love Cake to be around for another 25 years more, but that won't happen unless it keeps up with the times. If something can be done faster in another DAW, or RTFM is required because things are too different., not a familiar, or unintuitive, we'll lose users, and that would be a shame.  

Cakewalk should be right up there with the most popular PC DAWs , I mean come on. It used to be hugely popular and ...and it's FREE FFS. But they lost a lot of ground because of major ommisions like not having a dedicated sampler. The kids that make music now are using audio from Splice etc. and chopping it up.  Hip Hop is the biggest music genre on the planet. If you don't cater for those producers they will go elsewhere even if it's free.  So I don't the think the Export function working one way or another will make much if any difference to how many users Cakewalk can gain as it will be bigger more headline grabbing benefits that attract them.         

Edited May 13, 2023 by Mark Morgon-Shaw

[Mark Morgon-Shaw]

10 hours ago, Bruno de Souza Lino said:

Then pat yourself in the back. You're a special little piece of individual which never makes mistakes like everyone else. I envy you.

Thank you. 

[Xoo]

I do think that something subtle has changed in this.  I never (well, once in a blue moon) used to end up with anything other than what I was expecting to get exported (usally "Entire Mix") actually getting exported and didn't need to unselect everything to get it to work.  But recently (last few CbB versions - it's hard to tell when as my exporting is sporadic due to other commitments), I often get just a clip or single track exported.

Now this may well be down to how I'm working in CbB, and I've changed things without realising in a way that affects selection, but I don't believe I have.  Has anyone else experienced a change like this in, say, the last year or so?

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

On 5/12/2023 at 9:18 PM, OutrageProductions said:

C'mon kids... it's not that difficult; <Ctrl-A><E>.

Boom! Done.

I don't see what's so difficult about having presets override your selection once you select them. Nobody is losing their loved selection workflow and the export window is not lying to the user. When you select the "Entire Mix" preset, this is what you get, rather than someone else's interpretation of what a term which has a standardized mental model means.

[Light Grenade]

I agree. 

I have bounced silence or duff files more times than I can remember, and it is irritating. 

Having the export module override DAW selection also makes the most sense to me, but the current way of working is so baked in, it will likely cause issues. 

Export project is a good solution. 

[John Vere]

I just read this whole thread and at no point did anyone mention the existence of the infamous hidden view that clearly shows you what you have selected to export. It's another example of Cakewalk like to hide important features so as not to overwhelm the new users with more than 2 items in a view.  I just about spewed my coffee when I read a post the other day where a user couldn't figure out how the change the Start screen back to icons??!! Not possibly their fault as the toggle is kinda small and not a giant Smiley face. 

But in the Export dialogue the default is to hide the track selector you see on the right in the Source view.  Why it is hidden is the cause of many a thread like this. If the OP used this view they would no longer , like me, require to use Select all or none as in the past.  I always use entire mix but I took this screens shot to show someone how to also use the arranger to export alternate versions of songs. Once you open this view and I think save the workspace later it always will show. 

The Export dialogue is amazing in my opinion and once I took the time to explore all the features I have never had a screw up unless I wasn't paying attention.  My only gripe is pre sets don't save export locations. Those apparently are per project. 

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by John Vere

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

5 hours ago, John Vere said:

I just read this whole thread and at no point did anyone mention the existence of the infamous hidden view that clearly shows you what you have selected to export. It's another example of Cakewalk like to hide important features so as not to overwhelm the new users with more than 2 items in a view.  I just about spewed my coffee when I read a post the other day where a user couldn't figure out how the change the Start screen back to icons??!! Not possibly their fault as the toggle is kinda small and not a giant Smiley face. 

But in the Export dialogue the default is to hide the track selector you see on the right in the Source view.  Why it is hidden is the cause of many a thread like this. If the OP used this view they would no longer , like me, require to use Select all or none as in the past.  I always use entire mix but I took this screens shot to show someone how to also use the arranger to export alternate versions of songs. Once you open this view and I think save the workspace later it always will show. 

The Export dialogue is amazing in my opinion and once I took the time to explore all the features I have never had a screw up unless I wasn't paying attention.  My only gripe is pre sets don't save export locations. Those apparently are per project. 

 

Having to manually select what you want to export when  you want the whole thing you mixed defeats the purpose of even having presets (this probably feels like the 100th time I'm saying this, even though it's probably the 99th), especially when a simple selection can override them. And then you end up having this tool tip lying to the user:

Because you made a selection and what you're getting is this instead, when the simple act of selecting that preset should honor the promise said on the tool tip regardless of what you have selected before opening the export window:

And this is a design flaw because you don't get exclusive solo by just selecting a track. If that was the default behavior, then it could be argued that you should be more careful with your selections before exporting.

[John Vere]

Ok I now actually get it. Selecting “ Entire Mix” should ignore any highlighted tracks. Only selecting “Tracks” should export stems.  
I guess we learn the work around and don’t even notice we are doing it.  

[Chris Boshuizen]

8 hours ago, John Vere said:

Ok I now actually get it. Selecting “ Entire Mix” should ignore any highlighted tracks. Only selecting “Tracks” should export stems.  
I guess we learn the work around and don’t even notice we are doing it.  

Yes, that is it.  But thanks for pointing out the secret source panel! 

[Glenn Stanton]

wouldn't busses be stems?  thinking out loud - export entire mix - HW output (or equiv) - assume all unmuted tracks or only soloed ones; export tracks = tracks selected -- kick, snare, bass, guitar 1, guitar 1, vocal 1, back vox 1, etc, and export "stems" would be export busses - drums, guitars, keyboards, vocals, etc . at least this is how it seems to work for me.

[msmcleod]

On 5/21/2023 at 12:38 AM, Chris Boshuizen said:

Yes, that is it.  But thanks for pointing out the secret source panel! 

Not wanting to come across as nit-picking with terminology, but the fly-out panel is just a short-cut to changing your selection without having to close the export dialog.  This can be useful when creating multiple export tasks.

In the context of the Export Audio dialog, "source" has a different meaning:

"Source Category" - is where it should grab the audio from, i.e. is it grabbing it from the track outputs, the bus outputs, or the hardware outputs.

The checked "sources" under the category are the sources within that category where the audio will export from.  You'll get a separate audio file for each source that is checked.

The selection however (which is what the fly-out panel allows you to change), is what is sent to those sources.