Recording V-Drum MIDI - Question about the MIDI Notes

[Joel Pixton]

I'll describe real quick what I'm doing, trying to accomplish, and, then the issue I'm encountering.

What I'm doing: I'm recording 20-30 minute 'freestyle' drum sessions from my Roland V-Drums into Cakewalk Drum MIDI tracks. I created my own custom cakewalk drum map for my TD-8 roland module and am using Addictive Drums 2 as the synth. Everything is tracking great and sounds amazing on playback.

What I'm trying to accomplish: I'm trying to 'collect' phrases, fills, licks, and anything I can use from these 20-30 minute drum sessions. Though - considering I'm recording live drums, and I'm not a polished or disciplined drummer -- a lot of the recording is trash. So, I need to delete a lot of it. Which is okay, because, I have the time and am okay with coming away with possibly 2-5 minutes of solid MIDI clips from 20-30 minutes of work.

So, I want to get quick with this process of 'deletion/collection' so that I can record more sessions and harvest more clips.

The issue I'm encountering: I'm trying to loop bars of the MIDI to get a 'feel' if they groove and are worth keeping. But, the loop keeps starting with 'hits' from the previous notes that are far removed from the starting point of the loop. (See illustration) NOTE: this is also occurring with no loop. It happens simply by starting the playback anywhere in 'blank' MIDI space. It will play the previous notes at beginning of playback even when starting from blank MIDI space.

Observation: Something I observed after creating my custom drum map was that the MIDI notes became shorter, succinct, normal (see picture). Before the custom map, (see illustration), they were long lined notes and did not stop until the next note trigger, with the new note then running continuously in its place.

Suspect: I thought these long never ending notes were gone after I created my custom drum map. However, now that I'm trying to loop and do playback at specific spots and am receiving hits from previous notes that are so far removed from the starting point -- I suspect I have not gotten rid of them. In the Track MIDI clip view above you can see these long lines, yet, in the custom MIDI drum map view below they look like normal short notes. 

I included a few illustration/ screen shots in hopes somebody can possibly see what the issue is.

Any feedback, direction, or input is greatly appreciated!

 

 

 

 

 

[Colin Nicholls]

First, in the PRV, select from the menu Notes > [x]  Show durations in Drum Grid.

Secondly, when I record from my kit via a drum map to AD2, the midi events seem to have a default duration of somewhat less than a 1/16th note.

I can resize them all at the same time by selecting them and click-drag on the tail end of one note to resize all selected notes. So, conceivably you could resize the notes to be smaller, minimizing the chances of catching a tailing note in a loop. But I don't think you could eliminate it, and this might not be the best idea.

I'm not sure if there is a "default note size" when recording a midi track via a drum map. I don't *think* this would depend on the hardware? I use a Roland SPD-20, for what it's worth.

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Colin Nicholls

[JnTuneTech]

To add to the good info above: Longer - earlier MIDI notes overlapping into a "Now Time" start point will get triggered by default project settings that are included in the Project - MIDI - Other Options preferences, such as MIDI event chase...  But my question is - where did those long notes come from? Usually, a drum pad never puts out such long note on messages, in fact most of the time I have to modify pad inputs to make them visible lengths, -when I use normal note view. -Did you purposely stretch them, or somehow record them that way?  -I would fix that 1st.

[Joel Pixton]

1 hour ago, Colin Nicholls said:

First, in the PRV, select from the menu Notes > [x]  Show durations in Drum Grid

Thank you. I didn't realize the durations were not visible. I thought the drum map 'solved' the long note issue. I now can see with the duration that they are still the same notes as before. (see picture)

1 hour ago, Colin Nicholls said:

Secondly, when I record from my kit via a drum map to AD2, the midi events seem to have a default duration of somewhat less than a 1/16th note.

Thank you, again. This was what I was concerned about. That these 'never ending' midi event durations I was getting by default was not normal. 

2 hours ago, Colin Nicholls said:

I'm not sure if there is a "default note size" when recording a midi track via a drum map. I don't *think* this would depend on the hardware? I use a Roland SPD-20, for what it's worth.

This is very likely something to do with my Roland TD-8. It is coming up on 25 years old (made in 1999). Very possible it isn't sending 'off' signals, and instead sending never ending midi events.

[Joel Pixton]

26 minutes ago, JnTuneTech said:

But my question is - where did those long notes come from? Usually, a drum pad never puts out such long note on messages, in fact most of the time I have to modify pad inputs to make them visible lengths, -when I use normal note view. 

Thank you for this. I now know this isn't normal. I was assuming these long never ending notes were for 'sustain' reasons, so that the drum synths would carry the residual sounds of the drums as long as possible until hit again. 

31 minutes ago, JnTuneTech said:

Did you purposely stretch them, or somehow record them that way?  -I would fix that 1st.

These longer never-ending notes have been by default. They have been this way since my first recording and I thought the custom drum map had solved this issue, until I just clicked  'Show durations in Drum Grid' and can now see they are still the same long notes. I had assumed this was all normal until hearing Colin and your comments.

Now that I know they aren't supposed to be this way -- I wonder if you have any suggestions or ideas how to nip this in the bud?

I am still really new to MIDI, however, I'm assuming this has to do with my module not sending an "off" message after a pad trigger? Otherwise, I have no idea why these notes would be indefinite like this. I did my first MIDI recording last week and they have been this same way through at least different 10 different recording events now.

 

[Colin Nicholls]

Take a look at page 153 in the manual, and then see if your TD-8 brain has got a long gate time set. Experiment with changing the value (this could be per-pad):

 

Source: https://static.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/TD-8_OM.pdf

 

If that doesn't solve the problem try this:

• Start a new project, empty.
• Press record, hit  one pad once.
• after a couple bars, Stop recording.
• Take a look at the Event View. What do you see? Are Note Offs being filtered out somehow and not being received by Cakewalk?

What MIDI interface are you using? Is there a chance there's some filter?

Do you have any other controller, like a MIDI keyboard or something?

Edited May 2, 2023 by Colin Nicholls

[JnTuneTech]

In event view, normally you will only see note messages that by nature don't have an "off" - just duration, along with of course the note number and velocity. -Looking at event view may not clarify what is causing the long duration - but that again is probably in the drum module settings - gate time. -And yes, make a test with your system - make sure you can record normally with a keyboard - notes should only be the duration for which you hold the keys down, etc., or something else is wrong here.

FWIW - Going forwards you will get used to the note durations and proper uses for them in percussion samplers. As the quoted material states, some events may actually need a long trigger, although most percussive samples do not. For instance, if you choose to use a snare roll or flam sample in Addictive, they are actually loop-able samples - and will require triggering for the length of time you want them to last. Generally though, the pads should only trigger a short note length for most uses - certainly not much more than the length of the initial hit - reverberation and such is taken care of with other parts of the sampler playback in most cases.

Edited May 2, 2023 by JnTuneTech

[Joel Pixton]

6 hours ago, Colin Nicholls said:

Take a look at page 153 in the manual, and then see if your TD-8 brain has got a long gate time set. Experiment with changing the value (this could be per-pad):

Thank you for taking the time to look this up. I have the PDF TD-8 manual right here on my computer. I will experiment with the gate time values tonight. This is definitely worth a try and I would not have considered this.

6 hours ago, Colin Nicholls said:

What MIDI interface are you using? Is there a chance there's some filter?

Do you have any other controller, like a MIDI keyboard or something?

I'm using a Focusrite Scarlett 2i4. There should be no filter, I've been using all default settings. The only changes I made was I changed the Driver Mode to ASIO. I also have no MIDI keyboard. 

The only 'interference' I can think of is I currently have a second drum kit/module Roland TD-6 (Channel 11) daisy chained into the Roland TD-8  MIDI IN with Midi Thru turned on, and the TD-8 (Channel 10) MIDI OUT into the Scarlett 2i4 MIDI IN. I currently have a giant kit set up, two sets in one. The idea was to use both modules for more pads and a bigger drum set, however, after purchasing Addictive Drums I realized the Fairfax kit I chose doesn't come with extra Toms/Cymbals, so I've only been using the TD-8 pads for now.

The set up is TD-6 MIDI OUT -> TD-8 MIDI IN -> TD-8 MIDI OUT -> Scarlett MIDI IN -> Cakewalk

I think I'll first try unplugging the TD-6 and turn off the TD-8 MIDI Thru, now that I'm thinking of it to see if it makes any difference. 

[JnTuneTech]

6 minutes ago, Joel Pixton said:

I think I'll first try unplugging the TD-6 and turn off the TD-8 MIDI Thru, now that I'm thinking of it to see if it makes any difference. 

In the back of my mind something says you might want to try connecting just one module, and one pad connected to that, to see if the MIDI notes from just one of them get recorded properly. -Also, I can't tell, but did all of the notes have the same long timing? Or is it just certain pads?

[Joel Pixton]

7 minutes ago, JnTuneTech said:

Also, I can't tell, but did all of the notes have the same long timing? Or is it just certain pads?

Funny you ask this, I was responding to your last post and was going to point out that I spent a few hours last night getting familiar with editing - splitting notes, lasso selecting, deleting full sections/ bars - and can see that all pads are affected and are like this until the end.(Pic included).

It really was a pain because when I select all and split at specific points - the notes are split into another note that I have to then manually delete all of them carefully without confusing them for the actual next note. Some of them I have to zoom all the way into even catch because they're small and right next to an actual 'hit' note.

I'll have to solve this issue before I proceed with further recording sessions as the quickness of editing will be essential to what I'm trying to do. 

I actually don't have a MIDI keyboard to perform a test, though, I was going to purchase one soon after the drums were set up. Could I perform  a test with my computer keyboard acting as note duration triggers? I think I will try this as well later tonight.

[Colin Nicholls]

> Could I perform  a test with my computer keyboard acting as note duration triggers?

Not really - it wouldn't test the MIDI interface.

We have a very similar set up - I use an original Roland SPD-20 with a snare, kick and hi-hat pedal, driving AD2 via a Focusrite 6i6.

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Colin Nicholls

[Ross Smithe]

If I’m understanding you correctly, I recommend getting rid of the daisy chain setup in order to  troubleshoot. Plug each kit/module in directly by itself and see if they both respond correctly inputting the note info, or if one is glitching with the long notes (shouldn’t be like that, notes should be short). I seem to remember a previous post when you were setting this up that you said you picked up one of them cheap second hand, I’m wondering if there could be an issue with that module. If they each input correctly by themselves, but then this happens when you daisy chain, then it’s something with that set up.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Ross Smithe

[JnTuneTech]

1 hour ago, Joel Pixton said:

I'll have to solve this issue before I proceed with further recording sessions as the quickness of editing will be essential to what I'm trying to do. 

Before you delete any of your work (-if it's not too late already) - you can fix all the already entered long notes without taking too much time. -First though, make a backup - save as, copy, what have you...

Look for - or add - the "Event Inspector" module to the toolbar in Cakewalk. Then select one of the tracks that has the too long notes, and make sure that all the notes are then selected (highlighted) in the PRV view - or at least any that you want to fix.  -Click to bring down the Events (Event Inspector) module from the toolbar. -Click once on the section that is labeled "Duration". -In my example, 30 was selected automatically, but yours will probably say some other number. Clear that and type in 30 - as in the following screen shot:

-Hit enter on your keyboard.   Doing that will change all the selected notes on the track to a duration of 30. -In my drum editing, I use that, or sometimes 15, as a typical note duration for drum sample triggering. -Anyway, then you should have a much better chance at being able to edit & copy things you've already entered - FYI.

[Joel Pixton]

23 hours ago, Colin Nicholls said:

We have a very similar set up - I use an original Roland SPD-20 with a snare, kick and hi-hat pedal, driving AD2 via a Focusrite 6i6.

Your set up sounds ideal. I've wasted a bit of time trying to make my set up 'bigger' and utilize all the Roland pads I've accumulated through out the years. I think I might eventually be happier with a small simple set up like yours. Also, AD2 sounds amazing and has double inspired me to continue recording drums. I still have two kits to chose from their ADPaks.  

Btw, I didn't have to change the gate time values on my module. I started the troubleshooting by unplugging the extra TD-6 module that I had daisy chained, turned off MIDI 'soft thru' on the TD-8, restarted the module, and the recorded notes are now normal on Cakewalk.

I thought this was too easy and good to be true so I made sure to select Show durations in Drum Grid as you had originally pointed out to make sure and I'm in the clear. I'm grateful that you pointed this out, I would not have known otherwise. Here is a picture what it looks like now: Much easier on the eyes and will make the editing process much more pleasant. 

 

[Colin Nicholls]

17 minutes ago, Joel Pixton said:

I didn't have to change the gate time values on my module

That's a relief, because that part of the manual was way out of my comfort zone. Long shot, it was.

Fantastic that you've solved your MIDI record problem. Now you can get back to actually making music.

[Joel Pixton]

23 hours ago, Ross Smithe said:

Plug each kit/module in directly by itself and see if they both respond correctly inputting the note info, or if one is glitching with the long notes (shouldn’t be like that, notes should be short). 

I'm so thankful for everyone pointing out that the notes aren't supposed to be like that. I would've literally just accepted it as normal and continued with it. I spent last night editing my long glitch note recording and it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, but, definitely added time having to 'split' the notes.

Btw, I just tried plugging each module in by itself and the glitched long notes are gone. 

I started by unplugging my extra TD-6 module, turning off the MIDI 'soft thru' on the TD-8, restarting the TD-8 module, and now the recorded notes are exactly as you described them - short. I posted a picture above in last post. 

I then removed the TD-8 MIDI out cable, put it into the the TD-6, started recording and the notes were glitched and long. I restarted the TD-6 module, started recording and the notes were fixed. So, something about restarting both of these modules. I'm going to leave them separate for now. I think I might just purchase another interface for the second drum set.

23 hours ago, Ross Smithe said:

If they each input correctly by themselves, but then this happens when you daisy chain, then it’s something with that set up.

You nailed it here. They in fact do input correctly by themselves. I'm not even going to bother daisy chaining them again. 

[Joel Pixton]

23 hours ago, JnTuneTech said:

Before you delete any of your work (-if it's not too late already) - you can fix all the already entered long notes without taking too much time. -First though, make a backup - save as, copy, what have you...

I did not delete any of the work - though - the thought did cross my mind, lol. Thank you for this information about the Event Inspector. I recorded two 30 minute sessions last Sunday night. I finished editing the first session last night (took 5 hours). I'm going to use your "Event inspector, Duration: 30" method on the second MIDI recording clip tonight.

Also, I was able to fix the 'long timing notes' issue. I started the troubleshooting by unplugging the daisy chained extra module, turning off the 'soft thru' on the TD-8, restarting the TD-8, and the recorded notes are now shorter and normal looking as you've described them. I posted a picture a couple posts above at Colin. I think I might just purchase a second Audio Interface for the second drum set and avoid the daisy chaining all together. 

Thank you for noticing the long notes and informing me they were not normal. Otherwise, I would've continued on unassumingly and likely grew frustrated with the editing process. 

[Joel Pixton]

28 minutes ago, Colin Nicholls said:

That's a relief, because that part of the manual was way out of my comfort zone. Long shot, it was.

A relief indeed, and way out of my comfort zone as well, I was not looking forward to it. It would've likely blew a fuse mentally for me if it didn't work, too. Too much technical stuff, I might've just started recording the audio out from the module to avoid all of this and put "a new roland drum module" on my xmas wish list.

34 minutes ago, Colin Nicholls said:

Fantastic that you've solved your MIDI record problem. Now you can get back to actually making music.

Thank you for your suggestions and pointing out the note issue, sincerely. Exactly. I now feel close to the finish line of developing a recording/ making music work flow. 

[JnTuneTech]

@Joel Pixton - Also, continuing in my ramblings about things you will encounter using DAW & VSTi drum recording/editing: Now that you've cleared up the long note issue, it is also worth mentioning that some MIDI input will need adjusting, if you get further into playing instruments like Addictive Drums. -And though you can just use an on-screen keyboard, or even the preview you get by clicking on a note on PRV, I find it useful to have a keyboard when mapping out your virtual kits.

In virtual kits, there are some instruments that do need more than just a quick pad hit. Then there are some instruments that have to be used to link with another, and not just for layering. -The Roland modules and pads probably have some presets for some of that, but you will need to do it differently in VSTi instruments most of the time.

In the VSTi, many samples - kit pieces - are made for variations, that may not even be useful on the pads, but will be in editing. Things like built-in snare rolls, flams, and often melodic percussive instruments need more than just a "hit" - they need to have the note value long enough to trigger them fully - and for the duration you want - and you can test that by using a click in the PRV or using a keyboard - hold down the note and test the results. -They don't always say which ones need that in the maps & documentation.

And then there are things older pad kits may not have triggers for - but can be essential. Cymbal mutes are one of those for me. I always have to search the VSTi mapping for the note number they use to mute each of the cymbals, because every sampler, and kit has different mappings.    -Anyway, good that you are getting it all to work, sounds like a good project! Keep at it!

Edited May 4, 2023 by JnTuneTech

[Troy Winemiller]

apropos of nothing...

I use a Focusrite scarlett 18i20 3rd gen and a Roland TD-10 (so I'm using crusty drum brain also)

I found the Focusrite MIDI-in totally unstable with the drum brain and had to punt back to an old MidiSport to record the kit.