Live Feed for Streaming

[Aaron Baxter]

I'll start off by saying I'm pretty sure I'm doing this wrong and that's my issue, but nonetheless.

My primary use for CW is to receive the individual channels of audio from our X32 and output them via NDI to OBS Studio for Recording and Streaming.  However, the only way I've been able to get this to work is to set all (used) channels Input Echo = On and have them mapped to the Master Out which has the NDI FX Plugin.  This somewhat works, however since the X32 is apparently tapping the signal after the preamps and it's not changeable that I've seen with the XLive card, I would like to add EQs to and be able to adjust the volume of each channel.  The issue I'm encountering is the sliders and gain do not affect the audio being sent to the master/NDI out.   If I have Input Echo = Off, there is no audio sent to the Master Out.  I've also not started tinkering with EQs yet either as I can't get the basics to work. 

I also record in CW on occasion but if I can't have both at once, it's not the end of the world. 

Now if there's a better software package, or some plugin for this, by all means, please let me know.

[John Vere]

The problem is with the mixer set up and not Cakewalk. You are taking your signal before it can be processed by the mixer. This is actually a desired method for live recording as it gives you unprocessed audio in the DAW. Just set the gain so there’s no danger of clipping and then later you use the DAW to mix and process the tracks. 

My question is why do you need the DAW for the live stream?  Normally you would use the mixer and stream either the main mix or an auxiliary mix. 
 

[Aaron Baxter]

The reason for using a DAW? The machine we use doesn't have aux/mic in.  Also, as I mentioned, I do like to multi-track record live within CW at times.

I don't have an issue with the TAP being after the pre-amp/A-D which as you said is really ideal because recording EQ/effects will be different than FoH.   My primary issue is the faders/gain within CW do not affect the audio sent, and I'm surmising the channel FX won't affect it either.  Which may be tied to the issue of I must have input echo on to get any audio out of the Master.  Is this the expected behavior of CW? Not send audio to the Master without input echo on?  In my logic, it would output anything I tell it to to the master but I just wouldn't be able to hear it on my local speakers unless the master is set to the local PC speakers.

[Xoo]

If you are using CbB to monitor in realtime,then Input Monitoring does need to be enabled.

[John Vere]

2 hours ago, kperry said:

If you are using CbB to monitor in realtime,then Input Monitoring does need to be enabled.

This.  But be aware that system latency will be present at the output. This can be substantial if effects are used to process the signal.  
This is OK for streaming as the person listening is not in the room. But that signal would be very late if playing in the performance venue 

[JnTuneTech]

3 hours ago, Aaron Baxter said:

Is this the expected behavior of CW? Not send audio to the Master without input echo on?

Yes, as @kperry responded, if you are using realtime monitoring of a live audio input in Cakewalk, then input monitoring would need to be enabled to pass it through. -Think of the routing - a track in CbB can have several things routed to it as input. -If you are using an audio device input, rather than (or in addition to) existing recorded track data or other routed input, that input must be brought in live from the audio driver, similar to a preamp being switched on. -Without that, the track only sends whatever else is already present (-already routed in) on to the output of the track.

Since I am not familiar with the X-32 and the X-Live card you mention, I can only guess without a lot more hands-on investigation. However, I can say that if you are using the USB input of the mixer or card into Cakewalk, you should be getting fader & other processing in CbB from an audio input with Input Monitoring on, albeit with some latency, to show up at the master out of Cakewalk - if you have it routed that way, and again, active.

So, my question is - where are you monitoring the output of Cakewalk from? Again, I cannot see your hardware & software settings. Also, does the audio interface provide a method of loopback routings? If so, you might be able to use the audio interface entirely for both Cakewalk and the OBS inputs, as I have seen in other such live-streaming setups.

-One other possibility, is that the NDI FX plugin may need to feed from a bus, rather than the master out, I don't know the routing that actually feeds the NDI plugin - maybe that only reflects the external mixer output?  Does the audio device driver setup have a mix-routing app?  -I apologize if my guessing is way off, but hopefully some of this helps.

[John Vere]

2 hours ago, kperry said:

If you are using CbB to monitor in realtime,then Input Monitoring does need to be enabled.

This.  But be aware that system latency will be present at the output. This can be substantial if effects are used to process the signal.  
This is OK for streaming as the person listening is not in the room. But that signal would be very late if playing in the performance venue 

[Aaron Baxter]

On 4/28/2023 at 3:22 PM, JnTuneTech said:

Yes, as @kperry responded, if you are using realtime monitoring of a live audio input in Cakewalk, then input monitoring would need to be enabled to pass it through. -Think of the routing - a track in CbB can have several things routed to it as input. -If you are using an audio device input, rather than (or in addition to) existing recorded track data or other routed input, that input must be brought in live from the audio driver, similar to a preamp being switched on. -Without that, the track only sends whatever else is already present (-already routed in) on to the output of the track.

Since I am not familiar with the X-32 and the X-Live card you mention, I can only guess without a lot more hands-on investigation. However, I can say that if you are using the USB input of the mixer or card into Cakewalk, you should be getting fader & other processing in CbB from an audio input with Input Monitoring on, albeit with some latency, to show up at the master out of Cakewalk - if you have it routed that way, and again, active.

So, my question is - where are you monitoring the output of Cakewalk from? Again, I cannot see your hardware & software settings. Also, does the audio interface provide a method of loopback routings? If so, you might be able to use the audio interface entirely for both Cakewalk and the OBS inputs, as I have seen in other such live-streaming setups.

-One other possibility, is that the NDI FX plugin may need to feed from a bus, rather than the master out, I don't know the routing that actually feeds the NDI plugin - maybe that only reflects the external mixer output?  Does the audio device driver setup have a mix-routing app?  -I apologize if my guessing is way off, but hopefully some of this helps.

Ok, this messes in with my head.  Why have a master, route tracks to the master out bus and it not receive the input and route to the master out?  What is the purpose of the Master (and other buses)?  I'm trying to treat it like a mixer but I'm gathering it doesn't behave like one.  I'd be fine with this monitor setup but again, the FX/EQ/Faders/Gain do not affect the heard signal.  It seems the monitor is only hearing the raw input, which again, may be expected.

I've attached a screenshot (while we were using it) of some of the channel settings for reference.  The X32/X-Live card merely copies the signal after the pre-amps and digital converter and sends it to the attached system.  There's a little routing in the board, but unless you send it to a matrix you get a "raw copy" of the inputs.  There isn't a local loopback unfortunately.

This is one reason I'm wondering if there isn't a better application (though I've not found one) for my purposes as this appears to be more geared for recording then adding effects/EQ/etc after it's recorded.  The couple I've found don't support ASIO which is needed for raw input and more-so to keep windows form dickering with the signals.

The delay others mention doesn't appear to affect the streaming and recording experience as I have it setup below.

 

[John Vere]

It’s not clear to me what you are exactly trying to do?  The x32 is a very capable board as far as I am aware.  You should have no problem live steaming directly from it as well as recording the show into Cakewalk. But those are 2 entirely different tasks. We use a x18 and it’s  also very capable  Are you actually trying to use Cakewalk as a effects processing system?  Otherwise I fail to see why you are passing the audio though it? 

 Normally you would use Aux send returns through an interface and laptop if  wishing to use VST effects live. SOme digital mixers are VST hosts.  

 The live stream would not go through a DAW. Zillions of people are doing live streaming of shows and the mixer is the tool for the task not a DAW. A DAW might look like a digital mixer and it is most certainly a great mixer but not for live applications.  It is for recording. 

But you could pass the streaming audio through it with no issues other than latency. You cannot avoid latency when using plug ins. And feeding 32 channels of audio!! and adding effects ?? That adds up to  lots of latency.     

Edited May 1, 2023 by John Vere

[JnTuneTech]

2 hours ago, Aaron Baxter said:

So, my question is - where are you monitoring the output of Cakewalk from?

Again - what tells you that audio is not coming out of the Cakewalk Master Outs? -In your screen shot (thanks for that) - your Master shows "--None--" as output routing. -If there isn't an output assigned, how could you hear anything? -Is the correct output available to Cakewalk? Maybe revisit your audio settings in Preferences.

2 hours ago, Aaron Baxter said:

I'm trying to treat it like a mixer but I'm gathering it doesn't behave like one.

Please, revisit your connections and routing. Cakewalk is as much a mixer as you make it to be. Things do have to be routed per whatever your hardware & drivers, and settings are, on your end, it's not automatic.  Calm down and don't let it mess with your head. -I will agree with @John Vere though, -for live streaming, you may be making things too hard. And that mixer should be plenty capable, I would think as well, -maybe try posting in the Music Tribes - Behringer forums.  I wish I could help more, but again I am not familiar with the Behringer mixer & interfaces. -But Cakewalk works great as a DAW, and mixes quite well, for tracking & recording purposes, and we would certainly see a lot more complaints here if it didn't route audio to a master out. Take a deep breath, think things through, you will figure it out.

[Aaron Baxter]

 

Quote 

Again - what tells you that audio is not coming out of the Cakewalk Master Outs? -In your screen shot (thanks for that) - your Master shows "--None--" as output routing. -If there isn't an output assigned, how could you hear anything?

A screenshot farther up on the Master channel shows NDI Output which sends (locally) to OBS Studio.  My confusion is if input echo = off, no meters show on Master and there is no audio on the NDI connection.  Left shows with echo on, and right w/o.  Again, not an issue as it seems it's expected but I couldn't get the faders/gains to adjust the sent volume.  I WAS able to figure that out the though (I'm a class A moron and had the same signal coming in on both the independent channels and 2 matrix groups I forgot I had mapped for and old solution).

Quote

-I will agree with @John Vere though, -for live streaming, you may be making things too hard.

I COULD do all of the combining in the mixer with the Matrix and busses, but adjusting it and the mix for the live stream on 1 console taxes my brain.  Also, depending on where I tap the signal, it will either not have the EQ or have the EQ which is set for the monitors/FoH which doesn't sound the greatest on the stream.  So I'm using the DAW to adjust volume, put in limiters, and EQ a couple of the channels to improve the streaming/recording from OBS via NDI.   I'm also not a real fan of the button layout/controls on the X32/M32 as it feels very Fisher-Price to me but it's stupid powerful for the price. 

I'm only EQing the 6 mics and eventually master out as I want to give a "room" feel to audio I send to OBS.  Any tips on how to put a little room feel to it would be appreciated.

[JnTuneTech]

3 hours ago, Aaron Baxter said:

My confusion is if input echo = off, no meters show on Master and there is no audio on the NDI connection.

My first guess, as I have never tried it, would be that the CbB Master setup with no output routing would probably not provide the NDI plugin (or anything else in the chain) the proper signal, and the only thing coming through might be straight from the live input monitoring... It's not designed to work that way. -Software mixing is different in some ways than hardware mixing (even though it's almost moot nowadays with many mixers being mostly software controlled.., but I digress) But maybe you've got that straight now. Input echo is what passes hardware audio -live audibly- into a software DAW.  -Anyway, it sounds like you may be getting things figured out, and that's awesome.

3 hours ago, Aaron Baxter said:

Any tips on how to put a little room feel to it would be appreciated.

You have 6 mics and still not much room in the mix? I used to do a lot of video of open mic sessions I did a few years ago, and with only 3 or 4 mics, I never had that problem, but maybe you need to add a mic specifically for ambience. With that board... but I guess that does add more complications. Not sure what to say, but you will figure it out better hands on anyway. -Have you recorded streams already, and they are too dry?

-Also, I had a few extra minutes on YouTube searching earlier, and just searching X-32 + Streaming Live got several links titled specifically from people doing just that. -If I knew more about that type of board & fx options, etc., plus how it works with Cakewalk, maybe I could make some better suggestions, but hopefully what we have gone over so far helps. -Keep at it, there is almost always a way!

Edited May 2, 2023 by JnTuneTech