Recommendations regarding amplifier setup

[William Wave]

Hello.

There is a couple of issues with my current project, and frankly, no idea how to solve them. The project consists of three instruments: standard drums, standard bass guitar, and Ample Guitar M II Lite. Both guitars are amplified with TH3, a Metal Solo preset to be exact. The first issue is that guitars seem to lose power on higher notes and start sounding too thin compared to lower-note sections. Increasing volume in the amplifier solves it to certain extent, but it results in crackling and humming. Seems like the most rational way to solve both is to adjust the amplifier, but again, no idea what has to be changed and what values are supposed to be set.

So, to sum up, my tasks in this case are to keep the consistent rich sound along the track and avoid noises at the same time.

It will be helpful if you take a look at the project and explain what to do (provided that posting files is allowed here, that is).

[Byron Dickens]

[Byron Dickens]

In all seriousness, without hearing it, it is just a guessing game.

However:

4 hours ago, William Wave said:

guitars seem to lose power on higher notes and start sounding too thin compared to lower-note sections.

almost sounds like physics. As the fundamental of a note gets higher and higher, there is less and less low frequency information to fill things out. But you probably already know this and assuming you don't have unrealistic expectations, yours is probably a gain staging issue as His Lordship mentioned.

Also, are you really playing the bass through the same amp sim ? You should be using a bass amp sim; bass through a guitar amp sounds like *****.

Another contributing factor could be the preset. One of the major reasons I avoid [other people's] presets is because, for hard rock and metal, they almost always have too much gain.

The secret to getting powerful high gain guitar tones is to back off the gain and hit the front of the amp harder. Too much gain starts to thin out and get fizzy.

[William Wave]

11 hours ago, Byron Dickens said:

without hearing it, it is just a guessing game.

Here is the project file then: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1e84aJ3wWT8pr85puutZ80ivUjdZQeYZW/view?usp=share_link .

[Xoo]

11 hours ago, Byron Dickens said:

bass through a guitar amp sounds like *****.

Tell that to Lemmy! ?

[John Vere]

Ample Guitar is an acoustic guitar and is not something you normally run through an amp. I can't think of anything that sounds worse than my Acoustic guitar with overdrive! If you are looking for metal guitar tones you need to use an electric guitar sample like Strum Session or ( sorry, don't flog me ) TTS-1. 

[Byron Dickens]

9 hours ago, kperry said:

Tell that to Lemmy! ?

Wrong. Lemmy used Marshall 1992 Super Bass amps.

[Byron Dickens]

2 hours ago, John Vere said:

Ample Guitar is an acoustic guitar and is not something you normally run through an amp.

There's your answer. Case closed.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Byron Dickens

[Terry Kelley]

I've used the Ample M Lite to great results with effects including overdrive. It just depends on what you want. Like running a clavinet through a Phase 90. only different ...

The fact he's using the Ample M Lite doesn't slam the door on the conversation.

Edited April 29, 2023 by Terry Kelley

[Byron Dickens]

Some overdrive is a whole different ball game than a Mesa Rectifier with too much gain and ungodly amounts of delay and reverb.

 

He can try an electric guitar or he can keep fighting this.

[William Wave]

Okay, it's definitely worth trying an electric guitar, but first it is interesting to know your recommendations about what plugins in particular will suit the most (both main and bass guitars, free options only).

[William Wave]

1 hour ago, Lord Tim said:

I'd agree with the other comments though, a different guitar plugin that emulates electric guitar will give you better results if you can't use an actual guitar.

Of course. Still, specify a couple of free plugins to try. At this point my goals are same: achieve the consistent sound like in the intro of the project and avoid noises.

Edited April 29, 2023 by William Wave

[John Vere]

took me 20 seconds. 

https://plugins4free.com/plugin/3067/

 

[John Vere]

https://plugins4free.com/plugin/2315/

https://plugins4free.com/plugin/2333/

Not an electric but it's cool sounding - https://plugins4free.com/plugin/1348/  

Another free acoustic          https://plugins4free.com/plugin/1065/

Take note I have not installed or tested any of these yet, I just watched the demo videos for the 2 acoustics. 

The other place to search for free VST's is KVR   https://www.kvraudio.com/plugins/effects/hosts/newest

 

Edited April 29, 2023 by John Vere

[abacab]

16 hours ago, William Wave said:

Okay, it's definitely worth trying an electric guitar, but first it is interesting to know your recommendations about what plugins in particular will suit the most (both main and bass guitars, free options only).

While there are some decent free acoustic guitar plugins, I cannot think of any really GOOD and FREE electric guitar plugins.

Examples of some (paid) high quality electric guitars can be found at: Ample Sound, Indiginus, Native Instruments, Orange Tree Samples, and others...

https://www.amplesound.net/en/purchase.asp from $119

https://www.indiginus.com/renegade-electric-guitar from $59 (full version of Kontakt required)

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/catalog/komplete/guitar/ from $99 (works with FREE Kontakt player)

https://www.orangetreesamples.com/products/categories/guitars $179 (Evolution guitars work with FREE Kontakt Player)

I would include the UJAM Virtual Guitarists as well, but they are more designed to use on-board FX, and are difficult to get a fully "dry" guitar signal output from that you can use with an amp sim. https://www.ujam.com/guitarist/ from $149

If you compare any of these electrics played through your amp sim compared to that Ample acoustic, you will surely notice a difference.

While there are a few free electrics available, they don't stand up to these... in this case, you do get what you pay for.

Edited April 29, 2023 by abacab

[William Wave]

Instruments have been changed to BJAM posted above for the main guitar and Ample Bass P II Lite for the bass. Using electric guitars really makes a huge difference: the sound has become much clearer. Now, there was something about decreasing gain to get consistency on high notes. Explain in more details how to do it.

[mettelus]

On 4/27/2023 at 10:43 AM, William Wave said:

The first issue is that guitars seem to lose power on higher notes and start sounding too thin compared to lower-note sections.

Start with the basics here. Lower frequencies have more power than higher frequencies, and that ratio will not change by turning up volume on either end (before or after an amp sim) of things. The more effective solution is to EQ the guitar signal before it goes into an amp sim (-3 to -6dB on the high power portions adjusted for taste). Also realize that amp sims tend to create artificial harmonincs above 8K so that area should be tamed as well if needed. Voxengo SPAN is a good freebie to let you visualize this (and you can use multiple instances in the FX chain as well).

Plugins are stupid, they always work with what you feed them. Be sure the signal that goes into any FX is what you really want to be processed. Errors on the input are 10 times harder (or even impossible) to correct on the output side.

Edited April 30, 2023 by mettelus

[William Wave]

Frequencies are being adjusted, but this requires a specific graph that looks like this: one segment from 0 Hz to 250 Hz with minimum gain, then a segment from 250 to 4000 with increased gain, and then another segment with minimum gain. Experimenting with the number of positions on the graph and their modes gives a close result, but transitions have to be as steep as possible to avoid unnecessary frequencies.

 

Edited: anyway, the proper setup is found.

Edited May 2, 2023 by William Wave

[William Wave]

After increasing medium frequencies and toning down the others both guitars sound much more powerful on higher notes, and yet they still lack that lower-note juiciness. Applying lower attack (5 ms) and higher release (3000 ms) values in the compressor barely does anything.

[abacab]

On 4/30/2023 at 3:11 AM, William Wave said:

Instruments have been changed to BJAM posted above for the main guitar and Ample Bass P II Lite for the bass. Using electric guitars really makes a huge difference: the sound has become much clearer. Now, there was something about decreasing gain to get consistency on high notes. Explain in more details how to do it.

I noticed the BJAM is a sampled Fender Strat. That is probably another guitar to avoid if you are doing metal.

"I may get some hate for this, but Stratocasters are probably one of the worst choices for metal, unless of course you're buying Jim Root's signature guitar. Even then, that guitar is not made like a typical Fender Stratocaster. Most Fender Strats have three single coil pickups, which are almost always more subtle and bluesy than humbuckers, and aren't made to handle a ton of gain.

Their tone is not percussive or saturated, and they don't tend to mix well with high levels of distortion. Instead, think bluesy overdrive and "breakup" instead of heavy power chords and searing highs. 

There are plenty of far better options."

https://www.guitarchalk.com/are-fender-strats-metal/