Advice needed for using a 4 port MIDI interface with CbB

[norfolkmastering]

On 4/11/2023 at 5:56 PM, msmcleod said:

FWIW I used to use the MIDIMan interfaces, but the drivers do not play nicely with Windows 10 any more.

I'm using two MIDITech MIDIFACE 8x8 (one in the studio, one in my office) - they also do a 4x4 version.  It's class compliant, but has no issues with heavy MIDI traffic.

 

I've just bought a MIDIface 8x8 and to test it I cabled each input to its corresponding output.

Then I used MIDI-OX to send CC messages (from a fader) to all eight outputs, then monitored the inputs in MIDI-OX.

I seem to be getting the CC messages okay in all inputs but I'm also getting random other messages which don't have a MIDI channel.  They come up in yellow in the MIDI-OX input monitoring screen.  Are these expected?

 

[msmcleod]

3 hours ago, norfolkmastering said:

I've just bought a MIDIface 8x8 and to test it I cabled each input to its corresponding output.

Then I used MIDI-OX to send CC messages (from a fader) to all eight outputs, then monitored the inputs in MIDI-OX.

I seem to be getting the CC messages okay in all inputs but I'm also getting random other messages which don't have a MIDI channel.  They come up in yellow in the MIDI-OX input monitoring screen.  Are these expected?

 

It depends.

System common / system realtime messages don't have a MIDI channel.

One of the system realtime messages that can be sent by devices is "Active Sensing" - this is usually sent every 300ms or so, and is used to indicate that there is still and active MIDI connection.  Not all devices send this, but some definitely do.

Without seeing the message though, I can only speculate.... I doubt it's the MIDI interface itself though.

[norfolkmastering]

3 hours ago, msmcleod said:

It depends.

System common / system realtime messages don't have a MIDI channel.

One of the system realtime messages that can be sent by devices is "Active Sensing" - this is usually sent every 300ms or so, and is used to indicate that there is still and active MIDI connection.  Not all devices send this, but some definitely do.

Without seeing the message though, I can only speculate.... I doubt it's the MIDI interface itself though.

I have further more serious problems with the MIDIface 8x8

It uses generic Windows drivers and it will not allow me to access its MIDI input ports from both Sonar and MIDI-OX at the same time.

I tried using  loopMIDI ports to get around the problem.  So I route the the MIDIface input to a virtual loopMIDI port and then access that port in Sonar.

It works but the MIDIface unit is struggling to pass MTC and is causing all sorts of response problems between Sonar and my two external controllers.

My best guess is that the generic Windows drivers are not great and I may need to return the unit and find one that uses custom drivers.

Thoughts on this whole issue would be welcomed.

[msmcleod]

22 minutes ago, norfolkmastering said:

I have further more serious problems with the MIDIface 8x8

It uses generic Windows drivers and it will not allow me to access its MIDI input ports from both Sonar and MIDI-OX at the same time.

I tried using  loopMIDI ports to get around the problem.  So I route the the MIDIface input to a virtual loopMIDI port and then access that port in Sonar.

It works but the MIDIface unit is struggling to pass MTC and is causing all sorts of response problems between Sonar and my two external controllers.

My best guess is that the generic Windows drivers are not great and I may need to return the unit and find one that uses custom drivers.

Thoughts on this whole issue would be welcomed.

The vast majority of MIDI drivers will only let you open a port once.  It's very rare to find one that will allow more than one application open the same port.

I've always had to use loopMIDI when I've needed to use MIDI-OX, but there's always latency issues.  I've only ever used MIDI-OX for diagnostic purposes however, and not as part of a general setup.

One way around this I guess would be to use a hardware MIDI thru on the output of your device, essentially splitting the signal so you can plugin it into two MIDI input ports.  FWIW standard DIN MIDI input ports are optically isolated,  so you could easily build a simple splitter cable connecting one MIDI out to two MIDI input ports - just don't make your cable too long. 

What you can't do is connect two MIDI outputs to one MIDI input - you'll need to go through a MIDI merge unit for that, otherwise the MIDI messages will be completely garbled.

I must add though - are you definitely plugged into a USB-3 port?  If you're plugged into a USB-2 port, or you're using a USB hub that has USB 2.0 devices also plugged into that, then you WILL see a reduction in performance.
 

[norfolkmastering]

56 minutes ago, msmcleod said:

The vast majority of MIDI drivers will only let you open a port once.  It's very rare to find one that will allow more than one application open the same port.

I've always had to use loopMIDI when I've needed to use MIDI-OX, but there's always latency issues.  I've only ever used MIDI-OX for diagnostic purposes however, and not as part of a general setup.

One way around this I guess would be to use a hardware MIDI thru on the output of your device, essentially splitting the signal so you can plugin it into two MIDI input ports.  FWIW standard DIN MIDI input ports are optically isolated,  so you could easily build a simple splitter cable connecting one MIDI out to two MIDI input ports - just don't make your cable too long. 

What you can't do is connect two MIDI outputs to one MIDI input - you'll need to go through a MIDI merge unit for that, otherwise the MIDI messages will be completely garbled.

I must add though - are you definitely plugged into a USB-3 port?  If you're plugged into a USB-2 port, or you're using a USB hub that has USB 2.0 devices also plugged into that, then you WILL see a reduction in performance.
 

Yes I’m using a USB3 port. What brought this drama on is that I’m in the throes of replacing six MOTU ultralites with three MOTU 16As which don’t have MIDI interfaces.  The ultralite MIDIs work just fine but in the move to the 16As I need to find a MIDI interface with at least 5 inputs and 4 outputs which allows both Sonar and MIDI-OX to access the same MIDI input ports.

[msmcleod]

33 minutes ago, norfolkmastering said:

Yes I’m using a USB3 port. What brought this drama on is that I’m in the throes of replacing six MOTU ultralites with three MOTU 16As which don’t have MIDI interfaces.  The ultralite MIDIs work just fine but in the move to the 16As I need to find a MIDI interface with at least 5 inputs and 4 outputs which allows both Sonar and MIDI-OX to access the same MIDI input ports.

Not sure if this will cause more problems than it would solve, but have you tried switching from MME to UWP?

I think UWP will support multi-client for MIDI inputs.

Sonar certainly supports UWP, but not sure about MIDI-OX... although it might work if you use UWP in Sonar and MME in MIDI-OX.

[norfolkmastering]

I’ll give it a try.  Looks like UWP might not work with MIDI-OX but I’ll try it on Sonar and see what happens.

Thanks for the suggestion.

[norfolkmastering]

13 hours ago, msmcleod said:

Not sure if this will cause more problems than it would solve, but have you tried switching from MME to UWP?

I tried changing Sonar to UWP.  The MIDIface ports are not all recognised and have different names.  I tried to enable a couple of them but I get the error message, 'The device handle is invalid'. 

So I switched back to MME

I also noted that with MID-OX open and MIDIface ports selected in MIDI-OX, Sonar takes a very long time (about 1minute) to boot up (that's of course with no MIDIface ports selected in Sonar).

So I think I need to send the MIDIface back and look for something with non-generic drivers.

The MIDI ports in my Ultralite mk3s don't suffer from any of these issues.  As I said before, I wanted to find another multiport MIDI interface solution before changing over to the MOTU 16As for my audio interfaces (16As sadly have no MIDI ports).

[msmcleod]

1 hour ago, norfolkmastering said:

I tried changing Sonar to UWP.  The MIDIface ports are not all recognised and have different names.  I tried to enable a couple of them but I get the error message, 'The device handle is invalid'. 

So I switched back to MME

I also noted that with MID-OX open and MIDIface ports selected in MIDI-OX, Sonar takes a very long time (about 1minute) to boot up (that's of course with no MIDIface ports selected in Sonar).

So I think I need to send the MIDIface back and look for something with non-generic drivers.

The MIDI ports in my Ultralite mk3s don't suffer from any of these issues.  As I said before, I wanted to find another multiport MIDI interface solution before changing over to the MOTU 16As for my audio interfaces (16As sadly have no MIDI ports).

The only multi-client interface I'm aware of is the MOTU MIDI Express XT... but I think it's been discontinued.  It's showing as out of stock pretty much everywhere. 

I've heard that the ESI M8U eX might be multi-client, but I'm not convinced as it's a class compliant only device.  In saying that, it apparently has some clever routing capability, so it could be made to work. You can also run multiple interfaces by setting them to a different device id's using the dip switches at the back.   FWIW I've not used this particular MIDI interface, but I had issues with ESI MIDI interfaces in the past with my Mackie surfaces.  I wouldn't advise getting it unless you're certain you know you can return it.

In the meantime, it might be worth trying loopBe rather than loopMIDI.   LoopBe in my experience doesn't suffer the same latency issues as loopMIDI.

[norfolkmastering]

10 minutes ago, msmcleod said:

The only multi-client interface I'm aware of is the MOTU MIDI Express XT... but I think it's been discontinued.  It's showing as out of stock pretty much everywhere. 

Thomann have agreed to take the MIDIface back so that's a relief.

I've just ordered a MOTU Micro Lite USB (from Reverb) which seems to use the same MIDI drivers as the ultralite mk3.  I wanted something compact as I'm tight for space.  It is 5x5 which is enough for my needs.  I'll let you know how that goes.

 

[John Vere]

As time moves forward we will see more Midi 2 devices and then ARM? But the problem is a lot of us have cool old midi hardware that refuses to die. I have 3 pieces made in the 80’s that are totally fine. It’s too bad my old Roland A 880 midi patch bay was damaged as Im sure it would still work fine and it didn’t need no stinking drivers.   8 in 8 out and you could control the routing with midi patch changes or system exclusive. They just don’t seem to make that gear anymore. 

My solution for midi output is a little box I made myself from Radio Shack parts. 4 midi ports and little micro switches. All hardwired. I also made a 3 port one which is the one I still use because my controller is now USB. It’s not a merger so I can only choose one device at a time. If I want both I daisy chain. 
 

But I for sure need that my audio interface has a midi output. 

Edited Sunday at 05:52 PM by John Vere

[norfolkmastering]

On 6/8/2025 at 11:33 AM, norfolkmastering said:

I've just ordered a MOTU Micro Lite USB (from Reverb) which seems to use the same MIDI drivers as the ultralite mk3.  I wanted something compact as I'm tight for space.  It is 5x5 which is enough for my needs.  I'll let you know how that goes.

I just spent some hours testing the MOTU micro lite 5x5 MIDI interface.

Although I was able to select ports simultaneously on Sonar and MIDI-OX, operation during dual-client use was not reliable.  Sometime it failed to pass SysEx, sometime it scrambled CCs, just not right.  So I have reverted back to the MIDIs on my multiple MOTU ultralites.  These work reliably under dual-client use.

My search for a 5x5 (or bigger) MIDI interface with true multi-client operation under Windows continues ...

Suggestions welcome!

[Base 57]

 

This is what I use. Any computer or tablet on the network can use it simultaneously. There is also a smaller, less expensive model.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/mioXL--iconnectivity-mioxl-usb-midi-interface?_queryID=62523c6bdb19211bc460eaa437e313e9&_index=production_products

[norfolkmastering]

19 hours ago, Base 57 said:

 

This is what I use. Any computer or tablet on the network can use it simultaneously. There is also a smaller, less expensive model.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/mioXL--iconnectivity-mioxl-usb-midi-interface?_queryID=62523c6bdb19211bc460eaa437e313e9&_index=production_products

I've messaged them to double check whether their MIDI interfaces will do the job for me.

I'm also going to have a look at the new Windows MIDI Services drivers to see if that's a route I should explore.  Does anyone have knowledge or usage of these new drivers?