Advice needed for using a 4 port MIDI interface with CbB

[Philip Jones]

I have 3 keyboards, a Yamaha Tyros 3, a Yamaha PSR-SQ16, and a Yamaha MOTIF XS6, and I need to connect them all to CbB, so I went on Ebay and bought a Nektar MidiFlex 4, 4 port MIDI interface which allows me to connect up to 4 MIDI devices, giving me 4 ports of 16 channels per port, which uses the old skool 5 pin DIN MIDI in/out cables to USB, the device didn't come with any instructions as it was a second user device, but it does work, because when I plug it in to the PC, windows chimes to say it detected it, but the device manager show 'Unknown Device', so, I managed to find the drivers for it online, and installed them, now the Device manager shows the Nektar MIDI device, but here's the kicker, CbB doesn't see it under MIDI devices, the only device shown is the MS GS Wavetable for MIDI out, and yet Windows device manager see it and reports its working properly, but if I connect a Casio keyboard directo to the PC's USB port, the device manager sees it as 'Casio MIDI device' and CbB sees it in both the MIDI in/out list, but it doesn't see the MIDI interface.

Has anyone tried the Nektar 4 port MIDI interface, and is successful in using it with CbB?

[msmcleod]

Check your MIDI driver mode in preferences ( MIDI -> Playback and Recording).  If it's set to UWP, change it to MME (or vice versa), then restart Cakewalk and try again.

Note that you can't change MIDI driver mode while there's a project loaded.

[Glenn Stanton]

in addtion to what msmcleod has suggested.

i've only used MIDIMan interfaces for this (4x4, 2x2 and 8x8 versions over time, now using 2x2) but in checking out the Nektar site, it says the device is class compliant - meaning Windows OS (or Apple OS) should detect it.

https://nektartech.com/midiflex-4-usb-midi-interface/ USB class compliant (no driver needed) --- so it may be something else causing the missing or unknown device issue - sometimes USB port matters (e.g. USB 1.1 when the device needs USB 2, etc) or its plugged into a USB extender when it wants to be into a direct USB port on the system.

i use a site called Device Hunt to identify USB products and versions https://devicehunt.com/  this is one way to check what your device is telling the system, and i also use HWInfo (free version) to see the gory hardware details as well. 

[msmcleod]

FWIW I used to use the MIDIMan interfaces, but the drivers do not play nicely with Windows 10 any more.

I'm using two MIDITech MIDIFACE 8x8 (one in the studio, one in my office) - they also do a 4x4 version.  It's class compliant, but has no issues with heavy MIDI traffic.

 

[Glenn Stanton]

thanks! agreed the MIDIMan is getting long in the tooth but is workable for now. i'm going to check out the MIDITech 4x4 as i only need it for 3 purely MIDI devices (2 keyboards and a drum kit) (the rest are USB native).

[Philip Jones]

22 hours ago, msmcleod said:

Check your MIDI driver mode in preferences ( MIDI -> Playback and Recording).  If it's set to UWP, change it to MME (or vice versa), then restart Cakewalk and try again.

Note that you can't change MIDI driver mode while there's a project loaded.

I just checked and the MIDI driver mode is set to MME, no detection, I changed to UWP, no detection.

I changed mode soon after I started CbB with no projects loaded.

[Philip Jones]

14 hours ago, Glenn Stanton said:

in addtion to what msmcleod has suggested.

i've only used MIDIMan interfaces for this (4x4, 2x2 and 8x8 versions over time, now using 2x2) but in checking out the Nektar site, it says the device is class compliant - meaning Windows OS (or Apple OS) should detect it.

https://nektartech.com/midiflex-4-usb-midi-interface/ USB class compliant (no driver needed) --- so it may be something else causing the missing or unknown device issue - sometimes USB port matters (e.g. USB 1.1 when the device needs USB 2, etc) or its plugged into a USB extender when it wants to be into a direct USB port on the system.

i use a site called Device Hunt to identify USB products and versions https://devicehunt.com/  this is one way to check what your device is telling the system, and i also use HWInfo (free version) to see the gory hardware details as well. 

The workstation I use has 4x rear USB 2.0 and 2x front USB 3.0, and I tried the device in both rear and front, and still no detection in CbB, could the unit be faulty?

[chris.r]

On 4/11/2023 at 4:45 AM, Philip Jones said:

I have 3 keyboards, a Yamaha Tyros 3, a Yamaha PSR-SQ16, and a Yamaha MOTIF XS6, and I need to connect them all to CbB, so I went on Ebay and bought a Nektar MidiFlex 4, 4 port MIDI interface which allows me to connect up to 4 MIDI devices, giving me 4 ports of 16 channels per port

It has 4 ports but only max two can be as In, the rest are only Outs, so you won't be able to connect all your 3 keyboards in full-duplex, for playback it's fine though

On 4/11/2023 at 4:45 AM, Philip Jones said:

so, I managed to find the drivers for it online, and installed them

I would be concerned if what you downloaded was actually a driver and did not come with any malicious software bundled with it as there are no official drivers from the vendor, as pointed by Glenn, it should work out of the box and shouldn't need installing anything prior

Edited April 12, 2023 by chris.r

[Philip Jones]

On 4/11/2023 at 10:52 PM, chris.r said:

It has 4 ports but only max two can be as In, the rest are only Outs, so you won't be able to connect all your 3 keyboards in full-duplex, for playback it's fine though

I would be concerned if what you downloaded was actually a driver and did not come with any malicious software bundled with it as there are no official drivers from the vendor, as pointed by Glenn, it should work out of the box and shouldn't need installing anything prior

Hmmm, OK, I guess I'll return it and get an 8 port interface, but this time I think I'll buy it retail (probably from the local guitar center) as it'll come with everything needed.  Buying from Ebay, there's no guarantees stuff works, it may be cheaper than retail, but as the saying goes "You get what you pay for".

When I get one, I'll try it out and post any questions or problems here.

Just to make sure I get a good one, that others have had success with, what make and model would be suggested?

Or, should I forget about a MIDI interface, and get an internal addon USB card, that has extra USB ports, and just use MIDI to USB converter cables and plug those directly into the USB ports?  Something like this MIDI out to USB converter, and buy 3 of them, one for each keyboard.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Philip Jones

[msmcleod]

1 hour ago, Philip Jones said:

Hmmm, OK, I guess I'll return it and get an 8 port interface, but this time I think I'll buy it retail (probably from the local guitar center) as it'll come with everything needed.  Buying from Ebay, there's no guarantees stuff works, it may be cheaper than retail, but as the saying goes "You get what you pay for".

When I get one, I'll try it out and post any questions or problems here.

Just to make sure I get a good one, that others have had success with, what make and model would be suggested?

Or, should I forget about a MIDI interface, and get an internal addon USB card, that has extra USB ports, and just use MIDI to USB converter cables and plug those directly into the USB ports?  Something like this MIDI out to USB converter, and buy 3 of them, one for each keyboard.

 

I really wouldn't use those MIDI -> USB cables for a couple  of reasons:

1. The internal buffer is tiny, and are liable to stuck/missing MIDI notes especially during heavy MIDI traffic (i.e. when using pitch bend, modulation etc).
2. If you use more than one of them, they're impossible for both you or Cakewalk to tell them apart,  as they'll all show up as the same device.

[Base 57]

I have an Iconnectivity Mio XL.

It connects through ethernet. Super fast. Works great once you understand RTP Midi.

[chris.r]

15 hours ago, Philip Jones said:

Hmmm, OK, I guess I'll return it and get an 8 port interface

or use your Midiflex4 for connecting 2 keyboards and the third one just connect with it's USB MIDI connection, I see that at least Tyros and Motif have such port, but yeah having an 8 port midi interface would be the safest solution as you'd avoid potential scrambling of MIDI inputs in your Cakewalk projects that many are experiencing, including myself

[bvideo]

That cable looks really wrong anyway. The USB won't connect to your computer. Is there a link for that ?

[User 905133]

10 hours ago, bvideo said:

That cable looks really wrong anyway. The USB won't connect to your computer. Is there a link for that ?

That does not look like a din-to-usb midi interface cable.  It looks like a connector/adapter designed for products from a specific manufacturer for their products only.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/KMICab--keith-mcmillen-instruments-usb-midi-to-5-pin-din-midi-out-adapter-cable

Quote

• Keith McMillen USB MIDI to 5-pin DIN MIDI Out Adapter Cable Features:
  • Control any 5-pin DIN MIDI-equipped synth, drum machine, or sound module with your Keith McMillen MIDI controller
  • USB Mini to female 5-pin DIN MIDI connector
  • Compatible with the KMI K-Board Pro 4, QuNexus, 12 Step, and SoftStep

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by User 905133
added a quote so people don't have to click on the link; changed connector to connector/adapter

[John Vere]

The best solution was one you mentioned. Purchase a PCI e USB3 card to use for all your keyboards. I did this myself not for the extra ports but it stopped my Motu M4 from cracking. I had contacted Motu about the issue and they said it was due to my computers older usb system and devices that are USB powered need the juice.  So not only the Motu but my Roland controller  were both starving for power. 
The other advantages are each device will be properly named in Cakewalk so you won’t get them mixed up. As well as there’s an advantage in Midi latency it might make a small or a big difference.   
I only one of the devices doesn’t have USB then best bang for the buck is an audio interface that has midi ports. 

[Billy86]

On 4/11/2023 at 9:56 AM, msmcleod said:

FWIW I used to use the MIDIMan interfaces, but the drivers do not play nicely with Windows 10 any more.

I'm using two MIDITech MIDIFACE 8x8 (one in the studio, one in my office) - they also do a 4x4 version.  It's class compliant, but has no issues with heavy MIDI traffic.

 

Is this device considered a Midi hub?  I’ve read that hubs should have their own power source (not USB power) to work best in this application. This one is USB powered. Not an issue? Also, this uses the 5 din connectors? Equal performance to the newer USB Midi connectors? 

[msmcleod]

18 hours ago, Billy86 said:

Is this device considered a Midi hub?  I’ve read that hubs should have their own power source (not USB power) to work best in this application. This one is USB powered. Not an issue? Also, this uses the 5 din connectors? Equal performance to the newer USB Midi connectors? 

I've no idea what a MIDI hub is?   A network hub or USB hub merges data from several ports into one... so I guess a MIDI hub is a MIDI merge device?  This isn't a MIDI merge device.

This is an 8 in / 8 out MIDI interface.  It's USB powered (USB3), although I've had zero issues using it with USB 2.  I don't see why it would need to have a separate power supply. USB power is more than enough to power 16 x serial ports (which is all MIDI is).  It's not as if it's powering anything external - unlike say, a Scarlett 2i2 which has audio preamps and has +48V phantom power... all over USB 2.

The MIDI spec is 31.25K baud over 5 pin DIN connectors.  

USB Midi connectors running at USB speeds are part of the problem everyone is having.  The computer sends data to it at USB speed, but it has to send it out at 31.25K.  For it to do this, it needs to "hold on" to the data it receives in a buffer and send it out at a slower speed.  Lower quality interfaces have a very small buffer, which gets full way before it has time to send it out.

All I can say is, I've used this interface for a number of years now with heavy MIDI traffic, and it's never let me down.

[Ross Smithe]

Honestly this seems like an unnecessary over complication of the situation. Why don’t you just connect the two newer keyboards, the Motif and the Tyros, directly to your PC through USB MIDI (just have to download the USB drivers). Then use something like a Roland UM-ONE-MK2 (see pic) to connect the older PSR keyboard. I know for certain that the Motif has a virtual editor that you can also utilize if you go in through USB, not sure about the Tyros. If you just do standard midi cables, thru a hub or whatever, you won’t be able to utilize that tool.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Ross Smithe

[msmcleod]

16 hours ago, Ross Smithe said:

Honestly this seems like an unnecessary over complication of the situation. Why don’t you just connect the two newer keyboards, the Motif and the Tyros, directly to your PC through USB MIDI (just have to download the USB drivers). Then use something like a Roland UM-ONE-MK2 (see pic) to connect the older PSR keyboard. I know for certain that the Motif has a virtual editor that you can also utilize if you go in through USB, not sure about the Tyros. If you just do standard midi cables, thru a hub or whatever, you won’t be able to utilize that tool.

This is one of the few MIDI "cables" that will probably be fine - cheaper ones are a waste of money due to the buffer issues I mentioned in an earlier post.

However, you will still have issues when using more than one of these: neither you, or Cakewalk will be able to tell which is which, and unless you leave them permanently plugged in to the same USB port on power up every time, they're likely to randomly switch around as Windows decides which order they should be in.

[Ross Smithe]

1 hour ago, msmcleod said:

This is one of the few MIDI "cables" that will probably be fine - cheaper ones are a waste of money due to the buffer issues I mentioned in an earlier post.

However, you will still have issues when using more than one of these: neither you, or Cakewalk will be able to tell which is which, and unless you leave them permanently plugged in to the same USB port on power up every time, they're likely to randomly switch around as Windows decides which order they should be in.

With the set up I was describing, he would only need one of these cords for the PSR keyboard. The other two newer keyboards (Motif, Tyros) would do their MIDI in/out through USB.  He would then select whichever one he wants on each MIDI track.