What happens to the audio files when freezing MIDI tracks

[Harley Dear]

Hi all,

Our band uses Cakewalk backing tracks going into a Ui24R Digital mixer.

A while back I had trouble with some tracks freezing or CbB crashing altogether. People here suggested freezing the MIDI tracks, which I did and that has helped.

The problem I have now is that when I go to make up a new set list, I normally copy the CWP files over to the various sets, prefix them with a number and I can easily go through the list at the gig. An example is below.

However with frozen tracks, some of them when opened are looking for audio ( I guess the audio saved when freezing ) and that's impossible to go find where the audio is at a gig. If I skip the loading, most, if not all the tracks in the file are silenced. Some files however, there's no trouble with and I don't get asked where the audio is

So I am wondering why some give trouble, others don't and its probably something I am doing wrong freezing the MIDI tracks, or when I save the frozen file. I can't work out what it is.

Ideally, I'd like to be able to swap folders at will ( like I can easily do with CWP files ) and not have the frozen file wanting to look for audio and going into silence if I skip the steps.

Does anybody have some suggestions or know what I am doing wrong?

Harley




 

Edited March 19, 2023 by Harley Dear

[OutrageProductions]

This could be too 'old school' but:

When creating your backing tracks in a <my backing tracks> folder, put each song in there as <backtrackname1> to <backtracknamexxx>, the create a new folder in a convenient location <setlist> and then create a windows file shortcut to each original CWP file. You can then rename the shortcuts in order and with any other relevant details.

The orig project should then know to always look in its own child folders for resources and not get lost, as all frozen tracks should be stored in a nested architecture (if your storage preferences are set appropriately). This also tends to cut down on fragmentation as an added bonus.

Example

<set list>
          <shortcut to song1>
          <shortcut to song2>

<my backing tracks>
           <song1>
                  <song1projectfile.cwp>
                       <mixes>
                       <audio> (etc)
           <song2> etc, etc, ad nauseum...

 

You could also read in the help manual (Pg 329) about the "Play List" function, it may be of some service as well, including some features that may be handy, like preloading the next song, and using machine control to pause/start.

I'm guessing that some organizational file/folder housekeeping may be in order first, because it looks as though you are possibly storing all of your project resource audio in the default "Audio Data" folder, which can be a recipe for disaster IMHO.

Edited March 19, 2023 by OutrageProductions

[Harley Dear]

Thanks Outrage Productions. Some good tips there which I'll have a good think about.

I didn't have a problem with straight forward CWP files, which all consist of MIDI tracks and no audio. I could copy them anywhere and they would work without referencing any audio files. It's when I froze the MIDI tracks I ran into this problem. So it's that part of the problem I am trying to get my head around and understand plus come up with a fix for.

Harley

[OutrageProductions]

Yes. When you start bouncing or freezing tracks in a project, it really helps (in my experience) if each song is started/edited/mixed/frozen from its own folder.
My root level folders (on a dedicated audio project drive) are for Scoring, Country, Pop, Trailer, and a few others. Inside each of those I will start a new composition and keep all the edited & subedited versions in that same sub-directory. As I mentioned, if you are starting every song as MIDI at the same level in the drive, and relying on the Default "Audio Data" folder for your bounces, you are asking for trouble down the road. JMHO.

It might make your nested organization easier if you save each CWP as a CWB (bundle) and then move it to a new directory of the song name then delete the original.

 

Edited March 19, 2023 by OutrageProductions

[John Vere]

As said by @OutrageProductions always use per project folders  if there will be any audio in the projects.  Never use a global audio folder this seems to always ends up with orphaned tracks..

You can take projects that are using a global audio folder and make them per project folders easily.
Open the project and then using “save as” and checking the “ copy audio with project  “ box. Save the project in a new location and possibly rename it too. Now the project will be in its own folder and the audio folder will also be inside that folder. 
But this is not necessary if there is no audio in a project.  

freezing a midi track only temporary saves the audio. Open the project audio folder. Now freeze the synth.   You will see the new audio file created in the audio folder. 
Now unfreeze the synth and the audio files disappear. Even if you save and close the project that audio file is only there when synth is frozen. 

I would not freeze the midi any how as CWP projects with no audio are almost bulletproof for me. And they are very small file size.
They are similar to a pure midi file but CWP also loads all the other goodies like effects and instruments.  
I have over 200 backing track CWP files and never had any issues at all for years and years. So I'm not sure why you had issues in the past. My first guess would be there were misbehaving  VST instruments used. 

I was careful about my choice of instruments. I only used ones that seemed CPU friendly and avoid huge samples needing loading. So instead of freezing what might have worked was evaluate why a project caused an issue.

If you want samples of my Backing tracks I have shared them freely on my web page  https://sites.google.com/view/cactus-studios/cakewalk-backing-tracks

Also why are you having to create new versions to create new set lists?? Are you using Cakewalks Playlist? You don't need to have different files to use Playlist. You just choose your files and save each set list you can re order playlists as well and re name. Very quick and easy. 

Edited March 19, 2023 by John Vere

[Harley Dear]

15 hours ago, John Vere said:

 

Also why are you having to create new versions to create new set lists?? Are you using Cakewalks Playlist? You don't need to have different files to use Playlist. You just choose your files and save each set list you can re order playlists as well and re name. Very quick and easy. 

Thanks John. Playlist causes Cakewalk to crash every time unfortunately.

Actually, if there was a way the you could clear ( close ) the last track that was just played, that would make Playlist work without crashing.  I think it's because it stacks up track after track, that this is what causes it to crash.

Harley

Edited March 20, 2023 by Harley Dear

[John Vere]

Odd never crashes for me and I know there’s a lot of others use it. And that said when Cakewalk does crash 99% of the time it’s a plug in. This is why I recommend only using very solid dependable VST instruments.
Example most of us are finding the TTS-1 can crash Cakewalk so it only used to open midi files and preview. 
 

But I hope you have your answers to the original question now and can get you projects saved in proper folders .  But I don’t see why you would need to have any audio in the first place. Freezing instruments is only something you do with supper large projects to save CPU. Read the info on my blog I posted in my last reply for details on this. I haven’t added the info about using the playlist yet. 
One last question. Is there a reason you need multi track playback. Can you not use just a stereo or split mono playback? 

[Harley Dear]

11 hours ago, John Vere said:

One last question. Is there a reason you need multi track playback. Can you not use just a stereo or split mono playback? 

Hi John, thanks for replying. Yes the reason is we send multiple  tracks to a Ui24R and that allows us ( or the sound guy ) to change levels if need be.

Also thanks for your advice on Playlist. We use TTS-1 - so that's why it crashes huh!

Harley

[John Vere]

Could be. Certainly crashes for me. That and any 32 bit plug ins. 
TTS seems fine if it’s the first thing in a project. I still might use it briefly to open a download midi file to see if I can use it.
If I keep it  I then delete half the tracks and keep the bass, drums and keyboard parts that sound like a real player made them. I replace Bass with Ample p bass lite, drums with AD2 and keyboards with my arsenal of VST keyboards. 
If I do keep a guitar part ( rare) I use Ample for acoustic and Strum session for electric. Horns I use Dim Pro or xpand 2. 
For  a live show I would stay far away from anything that has that potential to crash. Besides TTS 1 is pretty sub standard quality compared to most others available now.